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Smaart analyzer
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toone1
Presonic

Joined: 29/09/2010 21:50:10
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I have been using the smaart analyzer to flatten out my studio monitors and also some other speakers(elite em168's) and also a behringer 215a, and what i'm finding is that when I run the analyzer it tells me to cut alot of the highend, and upper mids basically for all those speakers, i will add that it is in the same room, just wondering if I am doing it correctly I mean its pretty self explanatory but i was thinking that each speaker would give me a different result, now they are not all exactly the same frequencies that i cut but they end to be in the same region of the ones i tend to flatten it out.
chrisatrational
Presonic
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Joined: 12/12/2011 19:02:02
Messages: 138
Location: Putnam, CT
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cool - I'm following you.

All the speakers are in the same room, and that rooms characteristics are showing up consistently on each speaker. That sounds pretty normal to me. I hope you've got some absorption and what not in your studio! Eq should be the last thing you reach for - in the studio reflections are your worst enemy and Eq doesn't do anything about reflections.

The thing is - you are the one telling yourself to cut a lot of the high end (I think it is important for anyone new to analyzers to understand that the human interface makes the decisions - a CAT scan doesn't tell a doctor where to operate, the doctor still has figure it out based on prior knowledge and experience). The analyzer is just showing you what is coming in at the microphone position(s). I mean - how does it sound? extended high frequency is normal for a studio, but there is definitely a difference between extended and exaggerated


any who - I always analyze, tune, listen, re analyze, tweak, listen. For most cases it will be a 5-10 min process at least. Time varies based on how much time I spend listening, and any other issue imaginable that may or may not come up

- C
Chat with me on Skype = chris.tsanjoures
[Email] [WWW]
gadget69
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Joined: 21/09/2010 03:56:19
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I can tell you from experience that the Behringers will be hard to tune, and yes they are very high endy...Chris knows his stuff! I just did my JBL 4406's with the new 24Ai and even they needed the high end cut quite a bit.
NOTE: If your having an issue, open a tech support ticket and bring the number here if you want help!
http://support.presonus.com

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Belkin N450 dual band router, works with SL and Ai mixers
Studiolive 16:4:2
SL Ai24.4.2
ABUSB 1818VSL
Faderport
USB pre interface
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toone1
Presonic

Joined: 29/09/2010 21:50:10
Messages: 150
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i appreciate you responding to my question,
don't take this the wrong way but I'm not the one telling me to cut the hi ends the smaart is analyzing the room and it says these speakers are developing an increase in the higher frequencies I thought the whole thing is to get the system to read around the 0 db line.
i mean I realize you have to use your ears to say ya thats to much or not enough cut, but that is the purpose of the smaart is to say if you want a linear frequency then boost or cut these areas. right?
the behringers seemed to need more of the 1.2k and around the 2-2.5 cut and thats where i needed to start and then use the hi shelf to cut it down from there it seemed quite drastic.
the studio monitors were different they needed around the 2.4-2.9k and around the 10k cut and in saying this i needed to cut some of the lower mid around the 300 -500.
and the em168 elites cut at 465, 1.2, 2.9 and 8.5 although these are about the flattest of the group they are just over the 0 db line with out eqing and i'm cutting approx.4- 6db on all these frequencies. to get around the 0db
Walker Revels
Presonic

Joined: 22/01/2011 02:27:35
Messages: 224
Location: South Carolina
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Trust Smaart, he knows what he is doing......
presonus 24.4.2
Studio one,2 pro
Mac Book Pro,Ipad,Ipod,Iphone,airport express,
ithis, ithat, ieverything, "Presonus made me do it"
6 yamaha DSR 112
4 EAW LA 400
2 EV ELX 118P
2 Mackie 350
3 Line 6 wireless and lots of wired mics, I think I'm up to about 42(anybody know of a cheeper hobby?)
coustom cases for everything
salvadoredelle
Presonic
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Joined: 01/04/2011 17:49:43
Messages: 788
Location: Northern California
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I think you need to NOT EQ but use smaart to indicate what you need to do to you environment. Most "Studio Monitors" should be relatively flat, what you may be seeing with Smaart is your room reacting to the different speakers... I suggest getting some diffusers and get Smaart up and run some tests with different diffusers to fix the acoustics of your room... as said above EQ is tha last thing... it's the room you want to be tuning not your speakers.
In a Live situation you do not have control of the acoustics and there for Smaart is key to making this happen at a live venue.

You should take a speaker outside no acoustics, walls floors etc... and measure your speakers and see what they do... get closer then you would inside and just look at different noise on them thru Smaart... Down Load some of the different noise samples or use a generator in Studio One... I use several different types of noise to see what is happening in a room... sine wave frequency sweeps can also help pin point things you need to change in your room... if you get a pink noise going and use a parametric high Q and sweep it you can see what the room emphasizes and/or sucks up... but adjust your studio environment before you EQ your speakers or you may chase your tail a bit.
Open Labs Sound Slate Pro Custom Music production PC ( windows i7 x64, SP1) 16GB RAM, Intel (R) Core (TM) i7CPU 870 @2.93 Ghz, x64 bit /
Open Labs Nikko XXL Windows XP Based master workstation / Presonus Firstudio Tube / Presonus Studio Live 24.4.2 (2) / Studio Live 1602 (1) / StudioLive 16.4.2 (1) w/ Mac mini and ipad / Capture / Protools / Ableton / Reaper / OMS / Studio One artists & pro / Midas Venue live mixers (3) / Sound Craft 24x8x2 analog live mixer / AVID SC48 Digital console with digital snake/ Various Meyer Sound systems Ultra Series Speakers / Protools Control 24 controller/mixer with Mac tower running protools. Tannoy SRM12B Studio Monitors (old school and still sound great!) Meyer HD1 studio Monitors.
Yamaha C7 Grand Piano w/ professional MIDI (NOT a disklavier player piano but a real MIDI interface on a real C7!)
tons of outboard gear and synths, Kurzweil RM-250/PC88/ EmU E4 EX Turbo,
Spector NS2 Bass, ART Tube preAmp, Old Kay upright bass, G&L Strat /Taylor Acoustic Guitars, Mackie / QSC / JBL 4628B cabaret (Old School) / and Meyer ULTRA SERIES UPA/UPJ/UP-JUNIOR/UPM/UMS/MM4/MTS4 Speakers are the best you can get!
Walker Revels
Presonic

Joined: 22/01/2011 02:27:35
Messages: 224
Location: South Carolina
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Yep! I'll 2nd that
presonus 24.4.2
Studio one,2 pro
Mac Book Pro,Ipad,Ipod,Iphone,airport express,
ithis, ithat, ieverything, "Presonus made me do it"
6 yamaha DSR 112
4 EAW LA 400
2 EV ELX 118P
2 Mackie 350
3 Line 6 wireless and lots of wired mics, I think I'm up to about 42(anybody know of a cheeper hobby?)
coustom cases for everything
lowdbrent
Presonic
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Joined: 13/11/2010 22:17:51
Messages: 396
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toone1 wrote:I thought the whole thing is to get the system to read around the 0 db line.


No. We taper off the high end in live sound.

In the studio world, you should try not to EQ. You need to work on speaker placement, different speakers and your room first. EQ is the last resort and causes a whole other set of problems. Not everyone can put the speakers where they need to go or buy what is right. I get that. Your speaker system will not be flat at every volume level. You need to pick a volume that you can manage being exposed to for the amount of time you work and calibrate to that level. Try not to deviate from it, because it will change everything.

The other issue with hitting zero is you may have frequencies your room and speaker position are boosting or canceling. You may not need to boost frequencies, but rather flip polarity on a band. Unfortunately, the StudioLives do not have this horsepower. You will need an outboard processor with band pass options.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 07/05/2014 05:53:22

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salvadoredelle
Presonic
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Joined: 01/04/2011 17:49:43
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Location: Northern California
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well if you ask me... it sounds like the OP has his system set up like a PA in a studio... WRONG! If you are using Smaart that indicates to me that he is using the MAIN outputs on the console to feed your Studio Monitors... Wrong! And then wants to EQ them... Wrong!
Now... studio monitors are not at all the same thing as a PA speaker and they are used in different environments and a lot of the time it's a PA that goes from venue to venue... so placement and room acoustics change constantly and an empty room sounds different than a full room, etc... venues wont let you come in and do acoustic treatment nor do you have $$ for doing this and its not yours... so Smaart works great to correct and compensate for room anomalies in a Live PA system... Smaart in presonus consoles is set up for use on the mains, aux sends to monitors and subgroups as those would be the outputs you would need them on... Smaart does not function on the control room monitors feeds (that I am aware of??)... nor do you want it to.
In a studio you first want your environment set up correctly, speaker placement and room acoustics need to be addressed not with EQ but with making the room work as best you can... diffusers, bass traps, acoustic panels... the size and shape of the room and how you are set up in it all play into this. Computer screens can really throw a monkey wrench into your studio acoustics... so first you need to look into all this and get your head around that aspect of having a recording studio environment.

now the SL consoles... these are not controllers for your DAW at all... they are interfaces! There is really no reason to use the channel faders and subs and main faders to mix your tracks... you do that in Studio One not on your console. (only time it is good is a virtual sound check at a live gig). you want to use the control room outputs to your studio monitors... then you have a volume knob which you should pretty much have a setting it is always at so you have a reference point you know and are used to. Now... here is where you use the Billy-Bob voice and say... "But I want to use the Main Fader for volume"... at this point I slap you right up side your head ... get over it! it's a plastic fader for the Main PA feed... use it in a live PA not yer studio! it does nothing for you at all but get n your way in the studio... It's like a phillips screw driver and you need a hammer... use the right tool in the right way.
use the CR outputs, you have a CR module on the board to route Studio One via FW, Main board mix, aux and tape return... it is set up correctly for this and the Mains are set up for Live...

CR outputs allow you to SOLO in your studio monitors! ... ya want this!

Now Step back from your Smaart... reconnect your studio monitors to the CR outputs using high quality TRS/XLR cables and you will be much better off and have a better work flow.

Smaart on the SL consoles is great for Live set ups... this version is not intended nor set up for use in a studio environment, although it can be used to get a picture and help you see. If you really want to do it right get the full Smaart7 software and then we can talk about doing it in your studio.

In studio One you have tone/noise generators and spectrum analyzer... these are great tools you should learn to use as well in your studio. I have a template set up with Pink noise, Brownian noise and white noise and a tone generator... i use a PRM1 cal mic and can see what is happening in my studio with these basic tools... this way i can figure out where to place acoustic panels, bass traps and other acoustic treatment and see the results instantly, kinda like a smaart.

I'd never use EQ on the small studio monitors... on the big daddy speakers and super sub yea! that's for fun and rocking the foundation... not mixing.
Open Labs Sound Slate Pro Custom Music production PC ( windows i7 x64, SP1) 16GB RAM, Intel (R) Core (TM) i7CPU 870 @2.93 Ghz, x64 bit /
Open Labs Nikko XXL Windows XP Based master workstation / Presonus Firstudio Tube / Presonus Studio Live 24.4.2 (2) / Studio Live 1602 (1) / StudioLive 16.4.2 (1) w/ Mac mini and ipad / Capture / Protools / Ableton / Reaper / OMS / Studio One artists & pro / Midas Venue live mixers (3) / Sound Craft 24x8x2 analog live mixer / AVID SC48 Digital console with digital snake/ Various Meyer Sound systems Ultra Series Speakers / Protools Control 24 controller/mixer with Mac tower running protools. Tannoy SRM12B Studio Monitors (old school and still sound great!) Meyer HD1 studio Monitors.
Yamaha C7 Grand Piano w/ professional MIDI (NOT a disklavier player piano but a real MIDI interface on a real C7!)
tons of outboard gear and synths, Kurzweil RM-250/PC88/ EmU E4 EX Turbo,
Spector NS2 Bass, ART Tube preAmp, Old Kay upright bass, G&L Strat /Taylor Acoustic Guitars, Mackie / QSC / JBL 4628B cabaret (Old School) / and Meyer ULTRA SERIES UPA/UPJ/UP-JUNIOR/UPM/UMS/MM4/MTS4 Speakers are the best you can get!
gadget69
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Joined: 21/09/2010 03:56:19
Messages: 5008
Location: Northern Mn
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It's REALLY important that you listen to Chris, after all he designed the software/interface and is an accomplished practitioner of the SMAART full FFT measurement platform, and an instructor to boot, not to mention an acclaimed live audio professional. this in no way means you shouldn't also listen to seasoned veterans like Delle and Brent, because they have experience, and knowledge galore.

However, If you check out SMAART professional FFT you'll see that the program implementation on the Presonus is simplistic at best. This is a GENERAL, wide frequency averaging room affect minimizing implementation.

Now lets talk speakers...First off guys, the elite monitors are FLOOR monitors. Floor monitors are a whole different ball of wax. They couple with the ground and the bass frequencies are multiplied quite a bit...this is also a speaker that is TIED to a boundary, and as such, will exhibit much different response characteristics than it would if it was in a freefield (not near any boundary's at all.

On the other hand, the Behringer 215a's are a beast to try and get a handle on frequency wise, they are boomy, and high endy and beam like crazy, have a goofy pattern and generally have the poorest quality control of any of the budget speakers I have tested. Far too many of them exhiibit reverse polarity like tuning problems where you just can't quite ever get them to measure right...even when the polarity of one of the drivers is reversed it isn't any better...This manifests itself in the SMAART implementation as difficulty getting a flat line.

Typically, what SHOULD happen is that you use something like an FFT measurement platform and tune the speakers so that the drivers are in phase, and the crossover points are not causing huge sonic chaos in the crossover region. The speakers response should be smooth, fairly flat and even across the speakers range. THEN with a properly tuned system, you go into a given space and use the console's SMAART implementation to help correct for ROOM affects... If your having to use the SMAART on the console to fix problems in the speakers, your results will be less than satisfying.

So, add the weird sonic problems of the speakers to the room (and we haven't even BEGUN to scratch the surface here of speakers or room dynamics) inadequacies, and The SMAART implementation in the console will have difficulties giving perfect results, sometime even adequate results if things are really bad speaker and or room wise...and you will NOT be able to flatten the line no matter what you do...

Another problem is speaker placement, this can be one of the best, least known fixes you have at your disposal... To get a better understanding of what happens, try this :
http://webphysics.davidson.edu/Applets/ripple4/default.html
and move the dots (speakers) around the room and see what happens... grey scale is cancellations, and you need to try all sorts of different locations, close together (on top of each other) apart, in the corners, and even typical stage setups... you'll begin to see (graphically) what is happening in a room. You cannot EQ a room, you can hope to tune/place/eq the speakers with RESPECT to the room.

There is a HUGE learning curve associated with this, and the SMAART implementation on the consoles is a nearly insignificant drop in the bucket...
NOTE: If your having an issue, open a tech support ticket and bring the number here if you want help!
http://support.presonus.com

Tools:
OHCI tool and Latency mon:
http://forums.presonus.com/posts/list/11348.page

We, the few, that have done so much, for so long that now we can do everyything with nothing

dbx forum moderator

Lenova Ideapad Z565
Best connectivity Express card/firewire 2 port (400) that does NOT suggest having the TI chipset. (always worked great)
BYTECC Express card (400/800)07150358281

Asus/AMD processor tower. This setups just works on all firewire devices.

Belkin N450 dual band router, works with SL and Ai mixers
Studiolive 16:4:2
SL Ai24.4.2
ABUSB 1818VSL
Faderport
USB pre interface
Studio one Pro V2
LABsubs

loads of audio, and studio gear, and audiophile sound gear (gearslut)
[Email] [Yahoo!]
salvadoredelle
Presonic
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Joined: 01/04/2011 17:49:43
Messages: 788
Location: Northern California
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Rational Acoustics offers training classes in this with the Smaart7 software...
http://www.rationalacoustics.com/training/

if you are a pro it is well worth it.

I was lucky and got into this with Don Pearson... We did it the old school way with hardware EQ and delay and line drivers, used a giant B&K computer analyzer to guide us but we did it by ear... now days we have Smaart 7... and for the big boys SIM3 systems
http://www.meyersound.com/products/sim/sim3/

I am using Meyer Galileo systems for high end jobs to route and manage multi speaker installations... $$$!!!! the Omni Drives are great for small PA systems and smaller installations... DBX drive racks are OK too...
Behringer...? not in my rack!

I like the simplicity of the Smaart7 and it's about a grand for the software and interface and a mic...
SIM3...? great system!!! but you better have a rich uncle with a big bank roll!

Open Labs Sound Slate Pro Custom Music production PC ( windows i7 x64, SP1) 16GB RAM, Intel (R) Core (TM) i7CPU 870 @2.93 Ghz, x64 bit /
Open Labs Nikko XXL Windows XP Based master workstation / Presonus Firstudio Tube / Presonus Studio Live 24.4.2 (2) / Studio Live 1602 (1) / StudioLive 16.4.2 (1) w/ Mac mini and ipad / Capture / Protools / Ableton / Reaper / OMS / Studio One artists & pro / Midas Venue live mixers (3) / Sound Craft 24x8x2 analog live mixer / AVID SC48 Digital console with digital snake/ Various Meyer Sound systems Ultra Series Speakers / Protools Control 24 controller/mixer with Mac tower running protools. Tannoy SRM12B Studio Monitors (old school and still sound great!) Meyer HD1 studio Monitors.
Yamaha C7 Grand Piano w/ professional MIDI (NOT a disklavier player piano but a real MIDI interface on a real C7!)
tons of outboard gear and synths, Kurzweil RM-250/PC88/ EmU E4 EX Turbo,
Spector NS2 Bass, ART Tube preAmp, Old Kay upright bass, G&L Strat /Taylor Acoustic Guitars, Mackie / QSC / JBL 4628B cabaret (Old School) / and Meyer ULTRA SERIES UPA/UPJ/UP-JUNIOR/UPM/UMS/MM4/MTS4 Speakers are the best you can get!
twostone
Presonic
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Joined: 19/12/2010 08:33:04
Messages: 836
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As already mentioned using room treatment will help out a ton for home studio/ rehearsal space.
Here's a cheap and easy DIY how to clip.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mAc0AdgGHI[youtube]

okay since with PC I was able to post video clips but now with the mac it doesn't work the same way so here the link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mAc0AdgGHI

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 07/05/2014 22:30:03

toone1
Presonic

Joined: 29/09/2010 21:50:10
Messages: 150
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thanks for the info its great. i am no professional
I do have the studio monitors hooked up to my main outs, i couldn't see the difference between the out of the mains or the control room outs bedsides the way you turn up the volume. but now i know alittle more
it sounds like you all know each other somehow but to me your name doesn't mean much but somebody on the forum, i don't know you.(don't take this wrong)
but i appreciate the help and explanation.

the elite speakers are floor monitors but can be set up as FOH speaks, and i was experimenting with them to see how they look with smart along with the behringer.
gadget69
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Joined: 21/09/2010 03:56:19
Messages: 5008
Location: Northern Mn
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Were all just users like you, we only know each other from this place...I know Brent has a store, and sells and uses this stuff, Delle is a more recent addition that does installs and sound production, Twostone is also a longtime local and contributor...

I'm a contractor with roots going back to the dark ages, sound company owner, with recording studio, and audio and instrument repair facility. I build and repair loudspeakers, and recone drivers, am a moderator here and on the dbx forums...
NOTE: If your having an issue, open a tech support ticket and bring the number here if you want help!
http://support.presonus.com

Tools:
OHCI tool and Latency mon:
http://forums.presonus.com/posts/list/11348.page

We, the few, that have done so much, for so long that now we can do everyything with nothing

dbx forum moderator

Lenova Ideapad Z565
Best connectivity Express card/firewire 2 port (400) that does NOT suggest having the TI chipset. (always worked great)
BYTECC Express card (400/800)07150358281

Asus/AMD processor tower. This setups just works on all firewire devices.

Belkin N450 dual band router, works with SL and Ai mixers
Studiolive 16:4:2
SL Ai24.4.2
ABUSB 1818VSL
Faderport
USB pre interface
Studio one Pro V2
LABsubs

loads of audio, and studio gear, and audiophile sound gear (gearslut)
[Email] [Yahoo!]
chrisatrational
Presonic
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Joined: 12/12/2011 19:02:02
Messages: 138
Location: Putnam, CT
Offline

On that note - my one complaint about this forum is that you don't have to use your real name.

I've met several people on the forum here at PreSonusPhere and unless they have their forum name on their name tag, I have no idea who they are! Gary (Gadget) and John (monolith) are really cool guys, but when I met them I had no idea who they were until they told me their forum names!! har har.

But yes, we are all here to help, and we all have varying levels of skill and experience in various areas. Together we make one heck of a knowledge base. I'm glad we could help you out, and point you in the right direction.

Have phun!

- chris
Chat with me on Skype = chris.tsanjoures
[Email] [WWW]
 
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