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Lokeyfly
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NickWeiland wrote: i currently dont understand studio ones message of its clipping but i dont hear any clipping???


I understand. Not sure of the clipping level myself. Perhaps viewing the meters in RMS or other standards would help. Can't say just yet.

Two things that come to mind though
1. sometimes peaks occur based on tracks producing an accumulated peak (later in the audio stream). Still, as you say, I would expect to hear some digital distortion if ameter is showing overload.

2. Distortion can happen below peaks all of the time, so I'm really only relying on peak indicators to warn me. The headroom is so good digitally these day's that I only need to be warned to back off.

It would nice if Presonus engineering wrote a technical paper on what are the threshold of these peak levels, and what power level they go red. Not too difficult to find out. Simple calibration is all.

I agree with you. Sometimes I don't hear a peak anomoly either.

I'll check with alternate metering to see this. Who knows, add the scope plug in to see what that reveals. Or I'll check externally.

Btw, I appreciate Presonus adding a scope. How cool is that!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 13/04/2013 19:47:38

In the words of the late great Graucho Marx "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member"

S1 Pro 2.5, Laptop: VAIO i7, 8Gb, Win 7 X64, SP1. Supporting software, too much to list. Audio Interface: 22 VSL, M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Audiophile 192 PCI-e, Controllers: Novation SL Mk II, M-Audio Axiom, Guitar controllers by Roland GR-50, Percussion controllers: Roland Octapad II, Akai MPD-18. Guitars by: Fender, Gibson, Gretch, Guild, Martin, Taylor, & Yamaha
NickWeiland
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Lokeyfly wrote:
NickWeiland wrote: i currently dont understand studio ones message of its clipping but i dont hear any clipping???


I understand. Not sure of the clipping level myself. Perhaps viewing the meters in RMS or other standards would help. Can't say just yet.

Two things that come to mind though
1. sometimes peaks occur based on tracks producing an accumulated peak (later in the audio stream). Still, as you say, I would expect to hear some digital distortion if ameter is showing overload.

2. Distortion can happen below peaks all of the time, so I'm really only relying on peak indicators to warn me. The headroom is so good digitally these day's that I only need to be warned to back off.

It would nice if Presonus engineering wrote a technical paper on what are the threshold of these peak levels, and what power level they go red. Not too difficult to find out. Simple calibration is all.

I agree with you. Sometimes I don't hear a peak anomoly either.

I'll check with alternate metering to see this. Who knows, add the scope plug in to see what that reveals. Or I'll check externally.

Btw, I appreciate Presonus adding a scope. How cool is that!


i would like it to be a soft warning not a hard one. i dont like that i have to go through the menu of are you sure you want to. damn it if i wasnt sure i wouldnt do it. a soft message after the bounce/mixdown would be acceptable.
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Lokeyfly
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NickWeiland wrote: i would like it to be a soft warning not a hard one. i dont like that i have to go through the menu of are you sure you want to. damn it if i wasnt sure i wouldnt do it. a soft message after the bounce/mixdown would be acceptable.


I'm not clear on soft, or hard warnings. I only know of peak indications so I'm only adressing that. Not sure understanding about an are you sure menu as well.

Auto detect peaks is very important because it's something that once identified, then a bit of surgery has to happen to fix the problem. I need to fix that right away, so it's a bit of a "stop everything” for me. My suggestion simply creates a way to identify and options to fix, keeping workflow interruption at a minimum.
I'll post a sample in the next thread.
In the words of the late great Graucho Marx "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member"

S1 Pro 2.5, Laptop: VAIO i7, 8Gb, Win 7 X64, SP1. Supporting software, too much to list. Audio Interface: 22 VSL, M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Audiophile 192 PCI-e, Controllers: Novation SL Mk II, M-Audio Axiom, Guitar controllers by Roland GR-50, Percussion controllers: Roland Octapad II, Akai MPD-18. Guitars by: Fender, Gibson, Gretch, Guild, Martin, Taylor, & Yamaha
NickWeiland
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Lokeyfly wrote:
NickWeiland wrote: i would like it to be a soft warning not a hard one. i dont like that i have to go through the menu of are you sure you want to. damn it if i wasnt sure i wouldnt do it. a soft message after the bounce/mixdown would be acceptable.


I'm not clear on soft, or hard warnings. I only know of peak indications so I'm only adressing that. Not sure understanding about an are you sure menu as well.

Auto detect peaks is very important because it's something that once identified, then a bit of surgery has to happen to fix the problem. I need to fix that right away, so it's a bit of a "stop everything” for me. My suggestion simply creates a way to identify and options to fix, keeping workflow interruption at a minimum.
I'll post a sample in the next thread.

soft or hard warnings are this

if you get a popup and it forces you to click yes or no its a hard warning if you get a soft popup it means it will tell you whats up but wont stop the process.

when doing a mixdown it will hard warn you about your clipping i dont want that its annoying.
Computer: Asus Sabertooth x79 MOBO, 64 gb vengance Ram, 4gb windforce gigabyte Oc edition graphics card, processor: intel i7 3930 3.8 ghz 6 core, startech firewire card.
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Lokeyfly
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CLIP/PEAK LEVELS LIST See illustration attached.
As standard, click (or fader movement) resets clip indicators. However, to identify clipping, right click and a drop down list or the list is displayed in the browser (see detail). The list displays all clipping events as well as their song location, amount of clipping, and tracks where clipping occurred. Numerous clipping might occur based on long playback, long recording, or track bouncing. Resetting clipping anywhere resets the clipping list as well.

Note S1 additionally identifies clipping overload with a red flag along the time line (see detail). As with the clip indicators, this is another location to reset the clip warning, or right click to obtain the clip record list.

Select any item in the clipping list moves the song pointer two to four measures before the occurrence in the timeline for instant audition. There is also (in the list) a “-1 dB” and “-3 dB” button to reduce the peak level at that spike or region, also taking the song pointer two to four measures before the occurrence. This allows the option to listen only (select the incident in the list), or reduce the peak instantly by clicking on the dB reduction button. These correction options do not reduce the overall level of the track, but the point where the spike occurred. Overall track volume reduction would be lowering the track fader, or adjusting track automation.

Selecting the clipped line item in the list opens up the editor [F2] to view during the audition.

Finally, there is also the option in the list to simply “Fix”, which causes S1 to fix clipping based on whatever criteria it needs. Perhaps reducing the overload peak (or spike) by 1 dB and calculating the sum until no clipping occurs at the track, main out, buss, effects, or elsewhere pipelined within S1.

Summary: How many takes or tracks were deleted based on seeing overload, or wasting time playing back, to find sometimes several instances of clipping occurred when it may have been faster to throw the track out?
Solution:
By adding this feature, the clipping occurrence is now identifiable, provides fix options that are quickly located, ready to visually and audibly monitor, and amount of clipping that occured. The intention is to minimize interruption in the workflow when clipping occurs, due to hidden incidents of bouncing tracks, playback, or recording tracks.
I changed the list name three times as it’s a fairly un attractive name. Peak list, clipping list, etc. Clip list is not a good name as it could be confused with audio clips. A better name or thoughts to keep this simple are welcome.
Thanks.
P.s. I added a drop down list sample attachment. It had a different name during its creation. As you can see, it's next to a indicator that already appears when the mouse is over the clipping indicator. It reads "clip/peak levels". Probably the best name for the list "Clip/Peak Levels list".
table 03.jpg
[Thumb - table 03.jpg]
 Description Clipping Identifier list [Disk] Download
 Filesize 226 Kbytes
 Downloaded:  289 time(s)

Peaklist Opt 1.jpg
[Thumb - Peaklist Opt 1.jpg]
 Description [Disk] Download
 Filesize 121 Kbytes
 Downloaded:  279 time(s)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 14/04/2013 16:38:10

In the words of the late great Graucho Marx "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member"

S1 Pro 2.5, Laptop: VAIO i7, 8Gb, Win 7 X64, SP1. Supporting software, too much to list. Audio Interface: 22 VSL, M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Audiophile 192 PCI-e, Controllers: Novation SL Mk II, M-Audio Axiom, Guitar controllers by Roland GR-50, Percussion controllers: Roland Octapad II, Akai MPD-18. Guitars by: Fender, Gibson, Gretch, Guild, Martin, Taylor, & Yamaha
Daw stew
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Brilliant. That's more than comprehensive. Great stuff Lokefly
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Lokeyfly
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Thanks Daw stew. I forgot to list the locations for all occurrences, but the main ingredients get the point across. .

All of the components in S1 are there, so I hope they consider adding some sort of peak detection. .

Clipping meters are a warning after the fact. Sort of a "Hey, you just landed in quicksand".
A systematic way out is always helpful, so hopefully all of the good contributions many have made in these threads will prompt Presonus to do something about this.

To a good DAW making it better. Cheers! Prost! zdrowie! Salute!
In the words of the late great Graucho Marx "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member"

S1 Pro 2.5, Laptop: VAIO i7, 8Gb, Win 7 X64, SP1. Supporting software, too much to list. Audio Interface: 22 VSL, M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Audiophile 192 PCI-e, Controllers: Novation SL Mk II, M-Audio Axiom, Guitar controllers by Roland GR-50, Percussion controllers: Roland Octapad II, Akai MPD-18. Guitars by: Fender, Gibson, Gretch, Guild, Martin, Taylor, & Yamaha
Daw stew
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how about incorporating into the peak list something that shows an offending plug in so that if one plug in is too hot on its output the Peak List indicator would show you which effect was the cause of the peak. Clicking the plug in icon from the peak list would then open the GUI for you to alter its output?
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Lokeyfly
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Daw stew wrote: how about incorporating into the peak list something that shows an offending plug in so that if one plug in is too hot on its output the Peak List indicator would show you which effect was the cause of the peak. Clicking the plug in icon from the peak list would then open the GUI for you to alter its output?

Nice! It seems very doable because the list points to the offending plug causing the clip and/or the tracks if they produced too hot a signal as well. Sounds very useful!
I’m not sure the internals of S1 are wired to do that now, but why not tap into each plugin point as they too have their own output volume. Certainly doable, and certainly beneficial in locating the culprit.

Since a number of things can contribute to a tracks clipping, there will be times when it's also usful to check and turn down the plug as well even if the plug isn't so hot. Still, a visual reference is helpful.

One incidental as I am an advocate of visual reference meters. While I don't like a lot of information on the mixer (for items not active or used), I do wish there was some visual metering of active plugs on the mixer, say in a minimized way showing their output and various strengths. Now if those meters had a small peak indication...........? Food for thought.

Anyhow, my brain hurts (as it is late). Good stuff.
In the words of the late great Graucho Marx "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member"

S1 Pro 2.5, Laptop: VAIO i7, 8Gb, Win 7 X64, SP1. Supporting software, too much to list. Audio Interface: 22 VSL, M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Audiophile 192 PCI-e, Controllers: Novation SL Mk II, M-Audio Axiom, Guitar controllers by Roland GR-50, Percussion controllers: Roland Octapad II, Akai MPD-18. Guitars by: Fender, Gibson, Gretch, Guild, Martin, Taylor, & Yamaha
Lokeyfly
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Delving deeper into the peak list......
Since so many things can contribute and each component can add a little more signal thereby effecting only the track to clip, then the fix needs to be better defined. 

I'm wondering if it's in fact better to turn down the channel's level by that single, three, or fix option decibel amount instead of fixing only the spike. You see even if you bounce tracks and clipping occurred, it could and most likely will happen again. 
I think we're on the right target but need to understand the fix requirement.  
This is all good with the Peak list because it will upon fixing or previewing go to the audition so it still locates any or all problems. I think the fix may additionally require some reduction or attenuate the overall signal and not just fix the spike. 
Hope this makes sense as thumbing this out on the phone is a bit of a task.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 15/04/2013 13:51:17

In the words of the late great Graucho Marx "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member"

S1 Pro 2.5, Laptop: VAIO i7, 8Gb, Win 7 X64, SP1. Supporting software, too much to list. Audio Interface: 22 VSL, M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Audiophile 192 PCI-e, Controllers: Novation SL Mk II, M-Audio Axiom, Guitar controllers by Roland GR-50, Percussion controllers: Roland Octapad II, Akai MPD-18. Guitars by: Fender, Gibson, Gretch, Guild, Martin, Taylor, & Yamaha
NickWeiland
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what happens when you have roups of tracks causing the peaking? i mean a combination of some tracks could cause the offence rather than another different group. on there own they maybe fine but collectively they could cause the issue. so how do you combat that?
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Daw stew
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Maybe a clip indicator on group tracks?
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Lokeyfly
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I guess I'd take NickWeiland's earlier point about being ok with the indicator (of course with the peak list and optional fix). At some point the user has to then step in and asses the damage. Do you drop a little of the effect send back or other contributer? You see they may not be peaking red but are contributing so the human element should then step in. Sure any additional tie in points to effects and groups could help.
Running out of battery juice.,,,,......

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 16/04/2013 19:22:19

In the words of the late great Graucho Marx "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member"

S1 Pro 2.5, Laptop: VAIO i7, 8Gb, Win 7 X64, SP1. Supporting software, too much to list. Audio Interface: 22 VSL, M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Audiophile 192 PCI-e, Controllers: Novation SL Mk II, M-Audio Axiom, Guitar controllers by Roland GR-50, Percussion controllers: Roland Octapad II, Akai MPD-18. Guitars by: Fender, Gibson, Gretch, Guild, Martin, Taylor, & Yamaha
tkk
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This needs to be bumped. This a must have for us acoustic/classical recorders who would rather massage the levels manually instead of banging the dynamics with a compressor.
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Daw stew
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Happy to bump this for you tkk
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