image description


Greatly Disappointed ! :(
  Forum Index » Live Sound 
Author
Message
Kg_lee
Prenoob

Joined: 18/08/2013 14:17:51
Messages: 30
Offline

I recently bought a studiolive because of all the amazing thing I heard it could do. I love that I have gating and compression on everything and the EQ is killer. The bands I run sound for love the monitor mixes because they are loud and clear. The down side is the FOH mix and gain structures. I believe I have exhausted all possibilities coming up with why I can't get any punch out of this mixer and why it is clipping my amplifiers and it's nowhere near what my Allen & Heath GL2200 can do. I run my QSC HPR 153i's and 181i's at their loudest volume with my Allen & Heath with out any clipping safely and it's loud clean and punchy. I am not getting this with my studiolive.

The studiolive is only giving me 3/4 of the volume I normally get and the kick drum is just missing in the mix. If I turn the kick drum up I'm clipping the amps. I also have cut frequencies between the bass and kick and switch the polarity to try to find separation from the two. The people I have talked to told me that use these studiolives to run the output level wide open. From there I played music through the system adjusting the sensitivity on the back of my speakers til they peak then back them off. Now with my Allen & Heath the sensitivity on the amps are wide open.

My big concern is that I either doing something wrong or I wasted $3500 between the board and apple computer. I would really like to make this thing work and lighten my load carrying gear but I can't use this on my bands if it can't perform to the quality of my analog gear. I can only suffer a few more shows because I cannot risk losing work because of the poor results I'm getting. I have spent countless hours at home working with this board and I'm very disappointed. Can somebody give me suggestions of things to try?
SwitchBack
Presonoid
[Avatar]

Joined: 17/02/2011 01:10:03
Messages: 1428
Offline

Hi,

Couple of things:
- SLs don't like their inputs hot. Run your inputs round about -15dBfs (half way up the meters) for good results. In the mixer there's plenty (maybe too much?) amplification from inputs to outputs to make up for it.
- Check the trim pots on the back of the mixer. Most users run the main trim pot full on (clockwise when looking at it from the back).
- Keep an eye on the main output meters. You don't want them in the red (that's when the SL DACs clip) but they are well capable of getting there. If you can't make the output meters clip then you've got your compressors and/or limiters set too aggressive.
- use balanced cables (xlr or trs) from the main outputs to your QSCs. The difference between balanced and unbalanced on main is 6dB.
- The SL main outputs can deliver 24dBu from 100 Ohms. That should be plenty to clip your QSCs (not that you want to, but the capability is there). So the SL shouldn't be the limiting factor here. If it is then something's wrong.

Hope that helps.
Kg_lee
Prenoob

Joined: 18/08/2013 14:17:51
Messages: 30
Offline

It seems I'm doing everything right. I've watched many video's on the channel set up of this mixer. All meters look great , I'm just not getting this incredible sound that I get out of my Allen & Heath. The studiolive lacks volume and dynamic's but yet clips the heck out of my amps.

I have a show today and I'm going to use some of my external processing (gates/compressors) and driverack to see if there is anything different. I was told that the compressors where different in the studiolive that being you don't have to compress as hard?

SwitchBack
Presonoid
[Avatar]

Joined: 17/02/2011 01:10:03
Messages: 1428
Offline

Well, the pitfall when going from analog to digital is to (over)use all on everything.

If it's dynamics you're lacking then try running without compressors first, before applying compression with restraint if any. Also check the GR meters to see how much dynamics you're actually losing. When it's gone it's gone! A popular (good) trick is to use a little compression on the FOH output rather than using compression on all inputs. It makes things come together plus you can run FOH louder.

As for EQing: be careful with the SL PEQs: they are very effective! Better to use your ears than to try copying EQ settings from the GL. And that's even more true for the GEQs. The SL GEQs work very different from your ordinary outboard GEQs. When you use them it's best to keep the 'fader curve' smooth for best results.

And finally the noise gates: try running without them. Used a little too aggressive and they can make inputs disappear without you noticing before it's too late. You'll have to keep an eye on them constantly so the fewer you have in use the easier you make it on yourself. YMMV.
Monolithent
Supreme Baconator
[Avatar]
Joined: 28/07/2010 18:47:25
Messages: 13464
Location: Central New Jersey
Offline

The norm here is to understand that analog and digital are very different animals and there's a learning curve involved.

I would recommend going with only one channel at a time. Bring it in completely dry and set your gain to peak at -10 to -15. Then only do what you absolutely must do for gating and keep it as minimal as possible. Then use Capture to record it. Set it to loop and play with it. There is plenty of punch in the StudioLive once you learn to work it. Minimal compression is a good idea. And make use of the channel EQ to boost the areas where you need the punch or remove the areas that you don't.

Basic idea, get one channel at a time sounding like you want. Then compress at the end to keep them together.

It's all trial and error. My A&H boards have barely left the garage since I switched to StudioLives. It took a bit of time to figure out what worked best. Give yourself time to get it rolling like you like.
http://support.presonus.com

Tallest guy in the Mod Squad with all his hair still on his head.

No I'm not a freaking pilot!! The Air Force won't let me have a suit with a zipper...or sometimes shoestrings.

My advice and suggestions should never be considered advice or suggestions. These are mostly insane ramblings of a poor aircraft mechanic who can, strangely enough, still hear.

StudioLive 16.4.2, AudioBox 1818VSL, AudioBox 44VSL, Faderport, Digimax FS,, M-Audio Firewire 410
--MultiBoot System--
Win Vista 64/XP Pro/7 x86/7 x64 - Mac OSX Snow Leopard/Lion
Gigabyte motherboard--SYBA TI Firewire XIO2200A--i7 2600k Quad Core--16 GB DDR III--Custom 2U Rackmount--4 TB Raid (all internal SATA II)--19" Samsung HDMI LCD on pivoting VESA 1U Mount
Studio One v1 Pro x64
Studio One v1 Artist
Studio One v2 Artist
[Yahoo!]
salvadoredelle
Presonic
[Avatar]

Joined: 01/04/2011 17:49:43
Messages: 788
Location: Northern California
Offline

I notice the SL board are not as robust as my Midas but very clean and once you get used to the gain and workings digital board it should work fine... I would however suggest you do use a Drive Rack like a DBX PA+ or a Symetrix... these will give you a bit more control and speaker management the SL does not and gain as well.

BTW... used my little 1602 at a gig using Meyer Speakers and did not bring my drive rack... just the board XLR-direct into the powered speakers and found I needed about 6-10 more db... it sounded great just not enough balls so I will be bringing my drive rack along next time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 19/08/2013 18:52:49

Open Labs Sound Slate Pro Custom Music production PC ( windows i7 x64, SP1) 16GB RAM, Intel (R) Core (TM) i7CPU 870 @2.93 Ghz, x64 bit /
Open Labs Nikko XXL Windows XP Based master workstation / Presonus Firstudio Tube / Presonus Studio Live 24.4.2 (2) / Studio Live 1602 (1) / StudioLive 16.4.2 (1) w/ Mac mini and ipad / Capture / Protools / Ableton / Reaper / OMS / Studio One artists & pro / Midas Venue live mixers (3) / Sound Craft 24x8x2 analog live mixer / AVID SC48 Digital console with digital snake/ Various Meyer Sound systems Ultra Series Speakers / Protools Control 24 controller/mixer with Mac tower running protools. Tannoy SRM12B Studio Monitors (old school and still sound great!) Meyer HD1 studio Monitors.
Yamaha C7 Grand Piano w/ professional MIDI (NOT a disklavier player piano but a real MIDI interface on a real C7!)
tons of outboard gear and synths, Kurzweil RM-250/PC88/ EmU E4 EX Turbo,
Spector NS2 Bass, ART Tube preAmp, Old Kay upright bass, G&L Strat /Taylor Acoustic Guitars, Mackie / QSC / JBL 4628B cabaret (Old School) / and Meyer ULTRA SERIES UPA/UPJ/UP-JUNIOR/UPM/UMS/MM4/MTS4 Speakers are the best you can get!
roly-m
Prenoob

Joined: 06/03/2012 22:58:09
Messages: 70
Offline

" The down side is the FOH mix and gain structures. I believe I have exhausted all possibilities coming up with why I can't get any punch out of this mixer and why it is clipping my amplifiers"

If you can clip your amps, there's plenty of snot at the mixer out.

Sounds like there's a polarity issue somewhere.

Do you have bottom at the sides of the room but not in the middle of the room?
Kg_lee
Prenoob

Joined: 18/08/2013 14:17:51
Messages: 30
Offline

Thanks for all the replies.

Last night I was lucky to have someone show up at my jobs who works for a large sound company that actually uses the SL all the time. In a minute he had it sounding like it should. I still notice a slight decrease in volume from my analog board but I can work with what I have now. He said I wasn't to far off and it didn't sound bad. I have the sensitivities on my speakers set as usual (sub all the way up, top 3/4) , the output level on the board is about 2 o'clock.

This is how he got it working better he assigned the drums to busses 3,4 and main, guitar to busses 3&4, and vocals to busses 1&2. I noticed when he mixed when he need more volume he used busses 3&4 to get volume but all levels stayed in the green with random flashes of going into the yellow. During a guitar solo he would boost the guitar and lightly pull back 3&4. I would get a random flash on the sub amp once in awhile which didn't bother me.

If anything I'm one step closer to what I want.

He even recorded the band for me so I can play around with the board at a later time. All I can say is that with this board I almost need to forget how a normally EQ things and use my ears because some of the great sounds I did get from this board I would have never begun to EQ them the way they are.

I will try my driverack next time.
TimmyP1955
Presonic
[Avatar]

Joined: 29/07/2010 08:42:15
Messages: 348
Location: Indianapolis
Offline

There's no need to double bus, and certainly don't bus to subgroups and main simultaneously.

Run the channels 'cold' and the master 'hot', otherwise you'll run out of headroom on the subgroups.
http://www.padrick.net/TP_Audio.htm
lowdbrent
Presonic
[Avatar]

Joined: 13/11/2010 22:17:51
Messages: 396
Offline

1. re: Output. There is just over 2V output on the main and mono outputs of the StudioLive. There is put-lenty of voltage. Likely more voltage than your Allen Heath console.
2. Digital vs. Analog. You can saturate an analog console's inputs, summing busses, etc. You cannot do that with digital of any type. It is a different mindset.
3. Dynamics. You mentioned you had an Allen Heath console, but did not say which one. Whatever you had, you did not have dynamics. I gather you are using comps and such. The more compression you use, the less punch you are going to have. It is possible to make the RMS the peak. At this point, the sound turns to mush.
4. Analog consoles sound good to us because of harmonics and distortion. Digital is clean. It does not have that same mojo. It never will.
5. It's all in the operator. I mix on digital consoles exclusively now, including StudioLives. I have no complaints about my mixes. It will take you some time for you to get comfortable with it. 99.9% of the concert tours are using digital. StudioLive console preamps have beaten Yamaha M7CLs in blind taste tests at shoot outs.
[Email]
heilmann
Prenoob

Joined: 18/01/2011 03:51:36
Messages: 39
Offline

I need to correct a comment made earlier in this thread. The output impedance is not 100 ohms but 10k ohms. This is documented in the manual (pg 89 I think). This is why I feel most sl users have the gain adjustment on the back turned all the way up. I had done maney experiments a long time ago the were posted to confirm that it really is 10k. I dont know why, but it is what it is and knowing it I have learned to make it work well. The aux are the lower impedance.
Good luck.
SwitchBack
Presonoid
[Avatar]

Joined: 17/02/2011 01:10:03
Messages: 1428
Offline

Well, that Main output impedance is the one thing I checked with PreSonus directly, before buying the mixer (a long time ago). Wesley personally assured me that the main output impedance is 100 Ohms.

But to make sure that it is still the case I ran a little test on the 16.4.2 just now. Result: output impedance on Main is 109 Ohms (pin 2 to gnd and pin 3 to gnd). Surprisingly enough the output impedance (tip to gnd) on the subs and auxes is round about the same 109 Ohms. Ring to gnd on those outputs is 51 Ohms. Only the main outputs (left, right and mono) are differential balanced. The other outputs are only balanced (but not so good) for impedance.

Test used (while I was at it for a GEQ test): 1kHz sine wave to the output, measure output voltage using hi-Z rms meter, connect 600 Ohm load resistor, measure output voltage again, check phase shift (neglectible), do voltage divider calculus
mwright137
Presonificator
[Avatar]

Joined: 28/10/2011 17:57:00
Messages: 3878
Location: Central PA
Offline

Not sure if you always use the subgroups but personally I've stopped subgroup mixing with the SL. I noticed a 10dB drop in all signals that went through the subgroups to the mains. Once I started sending all channels to the mains directly, I had tons more punch. Just something to try...
I am Sir Melvis Bacon, Knight of BaconHam Palace.

MacBook Pro 13. OS X Mavericks - version 10.9.3
StudioLive 16.4.2; StudioLive 328AI (x2)
AudioBox 22 VSL; BlueTube DP V2; FaderPort; Monitor Station; FireStudio Project (x2)
Studio One 2 Pro 2.6.2 (64 bit)
I use Gobbler to back up my projects.
[WWW]
TimmyP1955
Presonic
[Avatar]

Joined: 29/07/2010 08:42:15
Messages: 348
Location: Indianapolis
Offline

It is common for subgroups to have less than unity gain, so as to lessen the chance of summing overload.
http://www.padrick.net/TP_Audio.htm
mwright137
Presonificator
[Avatar]

Joined: 28/10/2011 17:57:00
Messages: 3878
Location: Central PA
Offline

Less than unity is one thing, -10dB is HALF.
I am Sir Melvis Bacon, Knight of BaconHam Palace.

MacBook Pro 13. OS X Mavericks - version 10.9.3
StudioLive 16.4.2; StudioLive 328AI (x2)
AudioBox 22 VSL; BlueTube DP V2; FaderPort; Monitor Station; FireStudio Project (x2)
Studio One 2 Pro 2.6.2 (64 bit)
I use Gobbler to back up my projects.
[WWW]
 
Forum Index » Live Sound
Go to: