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UC 1.7 startup sequence?
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Gloria Dei
Prenoob

Joined: 23/04/2013 22:25:39
Messages: 7
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Our church band uses a 16.4.2. It and the amps are on a power sequencer so that they power on in the proper sequence. The Mac mini that the SL is attached to is on all the time.

In UC 1.6 this worked fine: The first band member to arrive would throw the switch and the sequencer would bring everything up and nothing needed to be done to the SL.

With UC 1.7 the board is basically frozen until we pull the FireWire cable and then plug it back in.

Careful to follow the instructions for the firmware upgrade, I'm pretty sure we did it exactly in the order proscribed.

Is anyone else experiencing this? Has anyone experienced it and solved it?

Thanks!
laumann
Presonic
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Joined: 25/11/2012 20:43:32
Messages: 129
Location: Denmark
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Hi
You must never, ever hot-swab a SL16.4.2. You will fry the firewire board in it - not a question of "if", it's a question of "when"...

The right start-up sequence of a SL16.4.2 and a computer is as follows:

You ALWAYS mount the firewire cable with everything shut down.
You turn the mixer on - then the computer. The reason being, that the mixer gets the info from the computer to switch to firewire-clock and firewire controlled Sample Rate.
Then you start up UC... And do your thing

When you are done doing your thing - shutdown is in reverse order...
Close UC, shutdown computer, and at last, turn the mixer off...

If you do it as described, you probably never will fry anything in the mixer

Good luck, and happy mixing from Denmark


From Denmark

>R.I.P.< SL16.4.2>R.I.P.< Never again.
Just swabbed the Soundcraft Si16 for a Yamaha DM1000 with 16ch + 16ch ADAT in/out and upgraded pre's. Sounds FANTASTIC

PA: Dynacord XA5+JBL Subs
Upgradet w. 2xDriverack PA (5-way x-over setup) and Outline digi-amps

Motif XS8 + Nord Electro 2 keys

EZCool (5 fans + liquid cooling) with MSI motherboard, I3, 16Gb ram, VIA firewire, 4Gb ATI videocard, 2 Benq 21,5" monitors, 6Tb HDD in all, Win8Pro(64) and Studio One Professional installed.
HP ProBook 6440b, Win7Pro(64), I5, 8Gb Ram, DeLock FW-card w. TI chipset, 500Gb int. HDD, 1TB ext. HDD and Studio One Producer installed
Behringer FCA1616 (Midas pre's), Fostex 2424LV. Studio sound is Powerworks (Hughes & Kettner) 2.1 system (600 watts in all). It's plenty
Back-up Yamaha 01v


Gloria Dei
Prenoob

Joined: 23/04/2013 22:25:39
Messages: 7
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Thank you for your reply. I left Apple after 22 years, during which time Firewire was developed. I can attest to the fact that hot swapping Firewire devices is absolutely a part of the specification, so if the order you described is required to preserve the hardware then the hardware is not meeting the specification.
Gloria Dei
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Joined: 23/04/2013 22:25:39
Messages: 7
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Again, I do want to thank you for your reply, and hope that mine didn't come across as short or snippy. I appreciate the experience that you have with Presonus gear which most definitely exceeds mine. I know there can be rules of thumb that get developed over time and those are worth heeding. I also know that not all manufacturers of Firewire devices follow all the specs. In the case of the Presonus gear, it looks like, from the release notes for UC 1.7, that Presonus expects you to hot plug Firewire:

Universal Control Update Instructions:
1. Quit out of Universal Control and disconnect your unit from the computer.
2. Run the installer and follow the onscreen instructions. The installer requires that your computer
be rebooted upon successful completion.
3. Once your computer has restarted, connect your FireStudio- or StudioLive-series device and
open Universal Control.


I'm going to try uninstalling the Presonus software and reinstalling it, since our procedure worked flawlessly under 1.6 but stopped once 1.7 was installed.
gadget69
Presonificator
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Joined: 21/09/2010 03:56:19
Messages: 5008
Location: Northern Mn
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The issue with hot swapping and firewire is there is considerable current capability in firewire, and when you unplug and plug your going to get a surge that could and does damage the firewire cards on occasion...better safe than sorry..

The problem as I see it is you fail to understand the way the control sequence is initiated... you MUST:

1. Start the mixer and let it boot,
2. Start the computer so it can take control of the mixer (HAS to be in that order!!!!
3. start your amps/speakers

NOTE: If your having an issue, open a tech support ticket and bring the number here if you want help!
http://support.presonus.com

Tools:
OHCI tool and Latency mon:
http://forums.presonus.com/posts/list/11348.page

We, the few, that have done so much, for so long that now we can do everyything with nothing

dbx forum moderator

Lenova Ideapad Z565
Best connectivity Express card/firewire 2 port (400) that does NOT suggest having the TI chipset. (always worked great)
BYTECC Express card (400/800)07150358281

Asus/AMD processor tower. This setups just works on all firewire devices.

Belkin N450 dual band router, works with SL and Ai mixers
Studiolive 16:4:2
SL Ai24.4.2
ABUSB 1818VSL
Faderport
USB pre interface
Studio one Pro V2
LABsubs

loads of audio, and studio gear, and audiophile sound gear (gearslut)
[Email] [Yahoo!]
Gloria Dei
Prenoob

Joined: 23/04/2013 22:25:39
Messages: 7
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Thanks, gadget69! I don't "fail" to understand the startup sequence. I fail to understand why the sequence we've been using throughout the 1.6 product cycle now no longer works.

As I pondered the issue and the discussion points raised so far I got to asking myself what design decisions I would have made were I product manager and the Studio Lives were my products. With regards to the Firewire implementation an assumption I'd have been willing to go with would be that the only Firewire devices I would support would be other Studio Lives and host computers. Since all of those would have their own power I would not need to support bus-powered devices out the Firewire ports and therefore could reduce component costs by not providing unregulated power on pin 1. So I visited our board at church and checked for voltage on pin 1. None.

What that means to me as a user is near perfect confidence that hot plugging the Presonus board into the Mac mini is not going to harm either the board or the Mac mini. At least not with the Presonus model I have.

I'm going to look into writing a daemon for our Mac mini that will solve the needs we have.
Big Joe Daddy
Presonic
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Joined: 30/07/2010 01:24:03
Messages: 594
Location: Santa Ynez Valley, California
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I have a SL 24.4.2, an SL 16.4.2, and an SL 16.0.2 and I often run the house system at our church which is fitted with an SL 16.4.2.

As long as I've been using the StudioLive suite of products, the startup sequence has been pretty forgiving. That may be why you never experienced any trouble with v1.6. All along, Presonus has recommended the sequence that Gadget suggested in his message above:

1. Start the mixer and let it boot,
2. Start the computer so it can take control of the mixer (HAS to be in that order!!!!
3. start your amps/speakers


Most users have found that following these guidelines provide the least problematic boot process. So in spite of industry specifications and conventions for FireWire, if what works best is what you're looking for, most StudioLive experts would agree that following the steps above is your best bet. Perhaps it wouldn't be too much trouble to shut down/restart the Mac Mini each time you boot up your StudioLive?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 21/05/2013 00:25:52

StudioLive 24.4.2 | StudioLive 16.4.2 | StudioLive 16.0.2 | QSC K Series 10's, 12's, Subs | Fractal Axe-FX II | Mac Pro - OS X 10.7.4, 2.66 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 2TB RAID, 16GB | MacBook Pro | iPad 64GB | Studio One v2.5 | an old watch, a lamp, and a box of crayons
Gloria Dei
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Joined: 23/04/2013 22:25:39
Messages: 7
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Thanks Big Joe Daddy. What we do with our Mac minis is have them process the recorded worship service and forward them on to our webserver and iTunes podcast library. The Mac minis are on all the time for a variety of reasons, but one is that we schedule the recordings that they are to make... and so they need to be on at all times in order for the scheduling to occur, for the automated recording to begin and then the processing and delivery offsite. We've looked at engineering a solution where a centralized server would send X-10 or Insteon control signals to the outlet powering the Mac minis, but the more involved the solution the more fragile it becomes. Volunteers also use the Mac minis for creating the graphics that are presented during worship services, so it really is best to not have the power to the Mac minis under automated control.

I grant that you that long established experience with the boards and the UC software is not to be ignored, and I'm not meaning to.

If there is simply no other reliable way to achieve this then I'll probably have to petition the church council for a second Mac mini just to control the board (our sound volunteers run the board from an iPad, which makes UC pretty essential to the solution). Then we could record on the first Mac mini. That just seems wasteful to have to handle it this way because of the UC 1.6 to UC 1.7 differences.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 21/05/2013 01:17:27

Gloria Dei
Prenoob

Joined: 23/04/2013 22:25:39
Messages: 7
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In the "for what it's worth" department, tonight before the band came in to practice I used the UC 1.7 Uninstaller to remove everything, rebooted the Mac mini, installed the 1.7 components again, and then rebooted the Mac mini. Then I shut down power to the sound system normally (using our sequencer), waited a few minutes and then powered it back up the way we always have and the board and the Mac mini sorted things out properly and worked as expected. So in this singular test it looks like we're back with the same functionality we had before the UC 1.7 upgrade. Time will tell!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 21/05/2013 03:34:46

gadget69
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Joined: 21/09/2010 03:56:19
Messages: 5008
Location: Northern Mn
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Ok, but be forewarned.. the likelihood of it lasting very long are NOT good...When the inevitable happens you will need to follow the edicts of the protocol or have inconsistent results... and in a volunteer situation that is NOT acceptable.. at least not to me...

Best regards...
NOTE: If your having an issue, open a tech support ticket and bring the number here if you want help!
http://support.presonus.com

Tools:
OHCI tool and Latency mon:
http://forums.presonus.com/posts/list/11348.page

We, the few, that have done so much, for so long that now we can do everyything with nothing

dbx forum moderator

Lenova Ideapad Z565
Best connectivity Express card/firewire 2 port (400) that does NOT suggest having the TI chipset. (always worked great)
BYTECC Express card (400/800)07150358281

Asus/AMD processor tower. This setups just works on all firewire devices.

Belkin N450 dual band router, works with SL and Ai mixers
Studiolive 16:4:2
SL Ai24.4.2
ABUSB 1818VSL
Faderport
USB pre interface
Studio one Pro V2
LABsubs

loads of audio, and studio gear, and audiophile sound gear (gearslut)
[Email] [Yahoo!]
Big Joe Daddy
Presonic
[Avatar]

Joined: 30/07/2010 01:24:03
Messages: 594
Location: Santa Ynez Valley, California
Offline

Gloria Dei wrote:Thanks Big Joe Daddy. What we do with our Mac minis is have them process the recorded worship service and forward them on to our webserver and iTunes podcast library. The Mac minis are on all the time for a variety of reasons, but one is that we schedule the recordings that they are to make... and so they need to be on at all times in order for the scheduling to occur, for the automated recording to begin and then the processing and delivery offsite. We've looked at engineering a solution where a centralized server would send X-10 or Insteon control signals to the outlet powering the Mac minis, but the more involved the solution the more fragile it becomes. Volunteers also use the Mac minis for creating the graphics that are presented during worship services, so it really is best to not have the power to the Mac minis under automated control.

I grant that you that long established experience with the boards and the UC software is not to be ignored, and I'm not meaning to.

If there is simply no other reliable way to achieve this then I'll probably have to petition the church council for a second Mac mini just to control the board (our sound volunteers run the board from an iPad, which makes UC pretty essential to the solution). Then we could record on the first Mac mini. That just seems wasteful to have to handle it this way because of the UC 1.6 to UC 1.7 differences.


The system at our church is not nearly as sophisticated as yours. We simply have a CD recorder in the rack and the volunteers toss a CD in the tray at the beginning of each service and then hand it off at the end of the service for uploading to the web server. Your system sounds like it's put together very well. As a suggestion, you might consider sticking with v1.6 until v1.7 has a few more miles on it.
StudioLive 24.4.2 | StudioLive 16.4.2 | StudioLive 16.0.2 | QSC K Series 10's, 12's, Subs | Fractal Axe-FX II | Mac Pro - OS X 10.7.4, 2.66 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 2TB RAID, 16GB | MacBook Pro | iPad 64GB | Studio One v2.5 | an old watch, a lamp, and a box of crayons
 
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