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How do you guys do this?
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mikemanthei
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Joined: 05/06/2014 05:34:20
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Its quite alright to disagree, and we may come to discover that I am wrong. If you speak to my wife, it happens quite often, although not with the regularity that she would suggest.
It's a good thing I wasn't eating something when I read that... I might have had food snork'd out my nose. Thanks for the laugh.

I can understand that the perception is that soloing output 3-4 should solo that signal in the control room.
Isn't that the ONLY perception? I'm not just trying to be a jerk here. I'm asking a real question. Isn't the ONLY function of a solo button to route that channel or mix to the CR monitors? Otherwise, why would there even BE a solo button? Follow the logical signal flow here... You don't need to solo the headphone mix for the performer who's plugged into that headphone mix. He/she is *already* hearing only that mix. Am I right?

If I'm not understanding the real usage for the solo button on the output channel, then will someone please explain it? With everyone so adamant that the software is working as intended, I'm feeling like my copy of S1 is broken.... or this is a bad Twilight Zone episode.

A typical home studio does not need 5 different mixes.
Well, now I'm sorry I brought up 5 mixes. I made that an issue because I was getting lots of solutions (like Presonus monitor station) that only resolve it if I'm running one mix.

It's not my need for 5 discreet headphone mixes that's causing a problem.. It's a problem when you only use ONE headphone mix. You still have to resort to outboard gear to hear it in the CR. How silly is that?

I can't say that I agree with the cost of routing a solo to a CR output. It's just software. There's already the ability to route unlimited channels to virtually unlimited busses and unlimited FX channels and I haven't found a limit to the number of sends per channel yet either. That kind of flexibility is difficult to code. I've been writing large-scale business apps for many years.

So after all that amazing power... you claim it would be too expensive to route a solo to the CR? I don't believe it. But we might just have to disagree on that one. I could be wrong here too. I just don't know which Twilight Zone episode this is.

matthewgorman
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Not being a jerk, just frustrated. I see that, and get it. The only thing I can add is its hardware holding you back, not software. If the software did exactly what you want, I can see a few problems that would result.

If you could dynamically switch cue mix 1 to output to the main, the performer would lose signal. If you could route cue mix 1 to share the main,l now you have 2 mixes to one output, and all the mixing joy that would bring. Just imagine trying to adjust the guitar fader, and there is no volume change because you also have cue mix 1 coming through the mains also.

So after all that amazing power... you claim it would be too expensive to route a solo to the CR? I don't believe it. But we might just have to disagree on that one.


Not sure of the cost, maybe not that much at all. That is why we have a feature request section. As a developer they can'y possibly think of every potential scenario, and suggestions from the user base helps to fill in the gaps. I think this is a good one personally.

I just don't know which Twilight Zone episode this is.


Its the one where Phil Spector gets transported 100 years to the future to avoid being in the same room with a gun and his girlfriend, and has to rebuild his career, all on the advice of OJ and Robert Blake.

In all seriousness, I think in this case you need to become one with the intricacies and anomalies of the analog to digital conversion. By all means come back if you need any help. There is always someone awake and willing to help around here. I think if you and I continue down this path, the frustration may overtake everything and we won't really get anywhere.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 30/06/2014 20:55:38

Matt

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S1Pro V2 (Special Dog Balls Edition), Melodyne Editor, Nomad Factory Studio Bundle, Waves Renaissance Bundle, Firestudio Tube, Faderport, Monitor Station, HP4 Headphone Amp Yamaha HS50 Monitors.
Shure Mics (57's, 58's, and a 1953 Unidyne), Various AKG, Various MXL Ribbon Mics.

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mikemanthei
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If the software did exactly what you want, I can see a few problems that would result. If you could dynamically switch cue mix 1 to output to the main, the performer would lose signal.
Well, you're right. Switching the output would be dumb. But I'm not talking about rerouting the whole signal. Tapping a copy of that signal and re-routing the copy is the right way. Just like every analog console made in the last 50 years does. If you have the experience of working with analog consoles, you know this is true.

If the software truly did exactly what I want.... then everybody would say: "Hey, you should try Studio One. It's the only DAW that let's you use the software mixer like the old analog boards. It's even got a working AFL on the headphone sends". Imagine the market share.

If you could route cue mix 1 to share the main,l now you have 2 mixes to one output, and all the mixing joy that would bring.
No..no. Not 2 mixes. Just one. Just like every physical mixing console made in my lifetime, you *replace* the main output signal with that of the solo. (...or multiple solos) Every other I/O is left alone. And then (usually) there is a bright light that tells you you're listening to a solo and not the main mix. We are not confused by this behavior. It's been this way since the Beatles.

The original "solo" function would take a copy of one or more channels (usually pre-fader) to a bus that interrupts the CR feed. In the case of a live console, you would have the ability to select "send to LR output" or "Send to headphone jack". Sending solo to LR was great for soundcheck, sending to headphones is best during the show. On a studio console, it's always CR out. But it never completely re=routed the original signal flow.
Later, a modified version of this was called "Solo in Place". This would be post-fader., post pan, and didn't mute effects returns.. Helpful for solo-ing up a bunch of BGVs to hear them in context with each other. Instead of peeling off a copy of the signal to a specific solo bus, it would mute all remaining channels and keep the original routing paths. S1 does it similar to this. This does interrupt other things so it was generally only used for mixdown, not so much for tracking.

As a developer they can'y possibly think of every potential scenario, and suggestions from the user base helps to fill in the gaps. I think this is a good one personally.
Agreed, they can't think if every scenario.... But this is not an isolated scenario, is it? It's the way solo/PFL/AFL buttons have worked for a half-century at least. Why has Presonus decided to remove this functionality that we've relied on for so long? In 40 years I don't remember anyone ever saying "Gee, I wish someone would replace this handy function with something more complex that required extra hardware!".

When you tell me that my needs are somewhat of a remote scenario... I go back to thinking .. we just have to be talking about different things. Anyone who's spent more than an hour on a mixing console knows the solo/PFL/AFL functions are key to getting their work done efficiently. Is my install of S1 is broken and I'm the only one who's seeing this behavior? So let's go back to the question I had in the last post. Can you tell me what that button does?

Assume I'm a new user, and I asked you what the solo button is for on the output channel.

In all seriousness, I think in this case you need to become one with the intricacies and anomalies of the analog to digital conversion.
Do all DAWs do this? You know... I haven't really done that much research on this subject. Hey, I've already spent 5 weeks on this, I can go do some more research. If all DAWs behave the same, then I will submit to the notion that the world has changed. ..and then go cry in my beer.

Most other DAWs I demo'd were so irritating in their workflow, I didn't even give them much of a chance. S1 is the first DAW that I could see giving up analog for. I guess I can't say whether other software mixers can solo/pfl/afl outputs or not. I'll reload a few demos and get back to you.

In the meantime, it would be great if Presonus would admit there is a problem and consider fixing it. It's step 1 of the 12 step program.
Step 1: Admit there is a problem.
Step 2: Fix it . Make your customers happy. Garner major market share. OK. I made up that one.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 30/06/2014 22:53:58

matthewgorman
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You know, if the developers see this thread, and remove the solo button from the outputs, well.......I can't be held responsible for what I do next.........and me and you........we're gonna have some words..........

Honestly, I don't know what the purpose of the solo button on the outputs is for, but I do know that I wouldn't spend 5 weeks on it, and I do mean that tongue in cheek. I feel your pain, but I think we both realize that the solution you want isn't around the corner.

Go grab that beer you mentioned, drink it don't cry in it, and get back to making some music. I hear that's very therapeutic.

Good luck.
Matt

Lenovo Thinkpad E520, Windows 7 64bt, 8 GB RAM, Intel i5 Processor
StarTech EC13942 34mm Expresscard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16839158010&Tpk=startech%20EC13942
S1Pro V2 (Special Dog Balls Edition), Melodyne Editor, Nomad Factory Studio Bundle, Waves Renaissance Bundle, Firestudio Tube, Faderport, Monitor Station, HP4 Headphone Amp Yamaha HS50 Monitors.
Shure Mics (57's, 58's, and a 1953 Unidyne), Various AKG, Various MXL Ribbon Mics.

1974 P-Bass, 1990 Jazz, 1985 Guild B302, Ampeg SVT with 4x10x15 cabinet

http://soundcloud.com/stars_apart
mikemanthei
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Joined: 05/06/2014 05:34:20
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matthewgorman wrote:You know, if the developers see this thread, and remove the solo button from the outputs, well.......I can't be held responsible for what I do next........
Awww, c'mon. You wouldn't do anything, because you don't currently use the solo button on the output channels.
Nobody does.
That's because it doesn't work. And in 5 weeks, nobody's been able to explain to me what it is supposed to do.

I challenge anyone to find a use for it.
Lokeyfly
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Joined: 07/06/2012 08:31:19
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In the meantime, it would be great if Presonus would admit there is a problem and consider fixing it.
That would be great. Don't hold your breath. Not everyone is looking to run 5 discrete monitor mixes for them to apologize over.

I'm asking a real question. Isn't the ONLY function of a solo button to route that channel or mix to the CR monitors? Otherwise, why would there even BE a solo button? Follow the logical signal flow here... You don't need to solo the headphone mix for the performer who's plugged into that headphone mix. He/she is *already* hearing only that mix. Am I right?
No, its not the only function of a solo button to route that channel or mix to the CR monitors. Quite simply solo buttons on a mixer channel allow you to quickly audition a signal all by itself, or with a group of other solo enabled channels. The solo button is primarily to audition. Be it anyone who needs to use it. It commonly isolates the signal(s) outside for that very purpose. It's not strictly for the CR. Also, wrong again, the performer may not need to hear only their mix but what's in context to their piece. Perhaps one other instrument, a dummy track, a click track, whole enemble, etc. I often solo especially at the busses, because I may have a very subtle effect on, and need to compare it to say a parallel channel(s).
I think you are continuously trying to compare the use of a mixer with monitoring and if a DAW needs to emulate a mix console. It effectively can do more/less depending on the needs of the user (albeit with not every isolated monitor mix in mind, routed from performers mix to the CR monitors). In fact, its often attractive to keep as little in view as possible from the mixer, like when EQ's are not being used, and so forth. Less is often more in such cases.

If you don't mind my saying so, you are trying to prove Presonus as wrong for something you don't like or need when you have very little time clocked in using a DAW. Fact is, if we were to ask 100 DAW users if they need 3 to 5 separate monitor mixes for performers and not have to "drag their console into the digital world", You might get 1 out of that 100. That would be a conservative estimate.

Different DAW's have different strengths and their customers find what works for them within that domain. You yourself appreciate the workflow of S1, as we also do. Even interfaces differ drastically. Some go for an Audio box or Focusrite, and others require MADI where they need 32 tracks at 192k resolution simultaneously. Some DAW's excel in different areas. It's all good and it's not all solved by software. There are many feature requests here (and elsewhere) that validate that.


I've been using and owned several quality analog and automated mixers, mixed live for a number of professionals. Mixed in many NYC clubs that hold several thousand people, and I've never felt I had to later challenge Pro Tools developers or a host of other manufacturers why they do not have pre/post fade and Solo PFL/AFL buttons. Instead, I decided to learn the advantages and differences and functionality within each digital workstation first, before I tried to prove "my" points. Especially when those points largely deal with outside equipment. Yes, DAW's provide a mixer environment, but they do not try to replace a mixing console. The routing is affectively different. Yes some DAW's provide somewhat more mixer-like control such as gain at the inputs, SSL like consoles, etc. I guess Presonus decided the user handles those gains on their signals before they enter the inputs. Perfectly reasonable. DAW's also don't have to create or match impedances when writing to disk. They simply write that code be it hot or cold, and the user is to be aware (as in any studio environment) to watch those levels. I will tell you that it has been suggested more than a few times to have pre/post fade selection anyway. In the end, there is so much automation functionality, controller functionality and Rewire functionality to perform those things later in the evolution of the song. JMO.

So after all that amazing power... you claim it would be too expensive to route a solo to the CR? I don't believe it. But we might just have to disagree on that one. I could be wrong here too. I just don't know which Twilight Zone episode this is.

I think you nailed Twighlight Zone. Who mentioned "too expensive to route a solo to the CR?" WTF. Summing is a way of solving analog mixes, and it was used as a case scenario for people who sum mixes "out of the box". It was an example, not "your solution", though I was getting to that, and did. The solution was not expensive at all. Again, you have an insatiable desire to throw your attitude around. You ask for help, but get angry when you don't like the answer. Speaking of Twighlight Zone, you're like the episode that keeps arriving at the same train stop.
I offered a solution to roll back a monitor mix to your inputs but then you felt that solution steps on the mix. Fair enough. Your attempt to be one ahead of the performers is admirable, but I don't think you need to be monitoring others monitor levels/mixes when you are recording. If you simply check and satisfy their general needs in the mix or during soundcheck, you'll be fine, but that's your gig, not mine. We've tried to assist, but you manage to come back and insult, or remind everyone of your analog mixer experience. It sounds more like a live scenario than a studio monitor mix you are looking for.

Well, now I'm sorry I brought up 5 mixes. I made that an issue because I was getting lots of solutions (like Presonus monitor station) that only resolve it if I'm running one mix.

For the 2nd time now, I have corrected you that it has 2 separate inputs. We also agreed that was not the solution so you seem to want to harp on things that are no longer an issue.

mikemanthei to matthewgorman:
Tapping a copy of that signal and re-routing the copy is the right way. Just like every analog console made in the last 50 years does. If you have the experience of working with analog consoles, you know this is true.
What could we ever say to that.

Hope you got a little dose of what others have had to listen to.

Is there a way for us to have a phone conversation?
Good job making that happen (less than 24 hours and you are off and running with an attitude and insulting others). Uh. no.
Maybe you'll try being polite when you ask for suggestions in the future.





In the words of the late great Graucho Marx "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member"

S1 Pro 2.5, Laptop: VAIO i7, 8Gb, Win 7 X64, SP1. Supporting software, too much to list. Audio Interface: 22 VSL, M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Audiophile 192 PCI-e, Controllers: Novation SL Mk II, M-Audio Axiom, Guitar controllers by Roland GR-50, Percussion controllers: Roland Octapad II, Akai MPD-18. Guitars by: Fender, Gibson, Gretch, Guild, Martin, Taylor, & Yamaha
Lokeyfly
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.....wrong thread

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 01/07/2014 12:10:50

In the words of the late great Graucho Marx "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member"

S1 Pro 2.5, Laptop: VAIO i7, 8Gb, Win 7 X64, SP1. Supporting software, too much to list. Audio Interface: 22 VSL, M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Audiophile 192 PCI-e, Controllers: Novation SL Mk II, M-Audio Axiom, Guitar controllers by Roland GR-50, Percussion controllers: Roland Octapad II, Akai MPD-18. Guitars by: Fender, Gibson, Gretch, Guild, Martin, Taylor, & Yamaha
 
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