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VG
Prenoob

Joined: 13/10/2010 22:44:33
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AudioCave wrote:I'd take the project manager Jon over you any day and twice on Sunday. He's a nice guy and he doesn't deserve your insults, especially since he personally tried to help you.

Did you notice, AudioCave, that you have no valid counterarguments against what I wrote here, but you talk?

It looks like my meaning of the word 'help' and yours are quite different. Help, in your opinion, looks like hypnotizing of the user that a half-baked product is the best on the market (or what?). Can you specify your meaning of 'help?'

Note: I wrote what does the word 'help' mean for me.
themuzic
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I'll repeat it again - in my opinion, the word 'intuitive' should have one meaning - 'logical.' Regarding the topic - the word 'logical' means the sequence, which allows to complete the task the fastest way available without reading the manual.


And I'll repeat, we disagree with you on this to the highest degree! I own Samplutude 11 and it is far from logical or intuitive. But that said, you don't see me going to their forums and asking them what the hell were they thinking? It's a totally different DAW.

Quite honestly, rather than coming in here and bashing things you don't understand or think is ridiculously poor implementation, try approaching it with "I tried this and expected that but got this, why?".

Then if it's not what you want, make a feature request or move on to Samplitude. Whats the point of raising fuss? Is it just the attention you're looking for? Well, I guess you got that.

I come from 15 years of analog and digital stand alone recording systems. I think I have a pretty good feel for making a move to a completely different way of working.

So anyway, my offer above still stands. If you're not interested in my offer just say so and I'll stop posting in this thread.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 15/10/2010 04:27:03

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VG
Prenoob

Joined: 13/10/2010 22:44:33
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themuzic wrote:
I'll repeat it again - in my opinion, the word 'intuitive' should have one meaning - 'logical.' Regarding the topic - the word 'logical' means the sequence, which allows to complete the task the fastest way available without reading the manual.


And I'll repeat, we disagree with you on this to the highest degree! I own Samplutude 11 and it is far from logical or intuitive. But that said, you don't see me going to their forums and asking them what the hell were they thinking? It's a totally different DAW.

Quite honestly, rather than coming in here and bashing things you don't understand or think is ridiculously poor implementation, try approaching it with "I tried this and expected that but got this, why?".

Then if it's not what you want, make a feature request or move on to Samplitude. Whats the point of raising fuss? Is it just the attention you're looking for? Well, I guess you got that.

I come from 15 years of analog and digital stand alone recording systems. I think I have a pretty good feel for making a move to a completely different way of working.

So anyway, my offer above still stands. If you're not interested in my offer just say so and I'll stop posting in this thread.

First, as you can figure out, I am not a fanatic of any company and no one is an authority for me because I trust not the names, but deeds.

Regardinf DAW-to-DAW:
Everything is relative - although currently Samplitude, as I wrote, is not perfect but vs. S1 is easier to use. When I tried Samplitude for the first time, I had only minor complains and nothing like I had with S1. For me, Samplitude is more logical and that's why it's easy to understand it without reading the manual. Well, special things are special things, but the basic is good enough, I mean pretty logical. S1 is a mess of good features, which require good organization and common sense.

You believe that I am wrong, so it's easy to find a winner - ask audio-professionals/engineers and typical users who are not associated with any company, to compare feature-to-feature and time-to-time of Samplitude vs. S1 and ask them - which one is easire to use without reading the manual, which one is better for the routine oparations (for an ordinary user), for complicated tasks, etc.

Arguing with you that e.g. no track names in the Console is illogical when you claim it's logical - does not make sense = we have different meanings of logic. Thus, prove that you are right using scientific criteria of truth. Can you or you afraid you will lose?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 15/10/2010 05:25:57

Motoko
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Right then, I'll cut you a deal:

You stop spamming up the forums with how everything is unacceptable and PreSonus should look for a new project manager and what not, bla bla.

And

I'll stop responding.

You have clearly established you cannot use Studio One as it isn't working for you in terms of workflow, right? No problem there mate. Just hang on to Samplitude or the next installment of Logic Pro.

Just act like grown up and stop trolling these forums. I've said this before, probably should have made a little drawing to help explain, but if you only know how to complain about how it doesn't work for you then might I suggest leaving this forum.

Maybe you can head over to the Reaper forum (oh wait, you're already there right, doing the same thing?) or the Ableton forums (as that probably won't fit your workflow either). Better still, maybe there's a forum on the McDonalds site as well. You can complain over there how the Big Mac doens't fit into your music making workflow and you really need the Happy Meal to have full automation support.

Seriously dude!
Mac OS X 10.9.3: iMac 21,5" - Core i3 - 8GB Ram
Mac OS X 10.9.3: MacBook Air 13" - Core i5 - 4GB Ram

PreSonus FireStudio Mobile || PreSonus AudioBox 44 VSL || Alesis Active M1 MkII || CME XKey || NI Maschine

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Motoko || 64 Measures Music || YouTube || Mass Overflow || Manta Tracks
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themuzic
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Joined: 17/04/2010 05:42:47
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Motoko wrote:Right then, I'll cut you a deal:

You stop spamming up the forums with how everything is unacceptable and PreSonus should look for a new project manager and what not, bla bla.

And

I'll stop responding.

You have clearly established you cannot use Studio One as it isn't working for you in terms of workflow, right? No problem there mate. Just hang on to Samplitude or the next installment of Logic Pro.

Just act like grown up and stop trolling these forums. I've said this before, probably should have made a little drawing to help explain, but if you only know how to complain about how it doesn't work for you then might I suggest leaving this forum.

Maybe you can head over to the Reaper forum (oh wait, you're already there right, doing the same thing?) or the Ableton forums (as that probably won't fit your workflow either). Better still, maybe there's a forum on the McDonalds site as well. You can complain over there how the Big Mac doens't fit into your music making workflow and you really need the Happy Meal to have full automation support.

Seriously dude!


Well said sir.

I guess I should also take the example I learned from my 5 year old Daughter....

"The more I react, the louder she cries." Life's little lessons

http://www.homestudiotrainer.webs.com/
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Email - homestudiotrainer@yahoo.com
Skype - themuzic
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I offer FREE assistance for Studio One (any version) and Presonus hardware, to anyone having issues or anyone who simply wants to learn

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Kahlbert
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Obviously this thread can't be closed without spamming hell breaking loose - although this step would be well deserved.

Therefore I suggest all users with any sort of sanity and reason to simply boycott this BS.

Thanks for listening.
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eike
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Joined: 16/04/2009 10:27:02
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Kahlbert wrote:Obviously this thread can't be closed without spamming hell breaking loose - although this step would be well deserved.

Therefore I suggest all users with any sort of sanity and reason to simply boycott this BS.

Thanks for listening.

also, freedom of opinion always means freedom for those you do not want to hear. even if you have good reason for not wanting. so i think closing threads is sort of weak. i know i hate it at those forums where it happens a lot.
everyone who can think for himself and differentiate between common sense and his own expectations will know what to make of this. btw, using shrill colours or large letters makes me skip messages. sort of reminds me of this guy:

(i'm afraid the better ones about him are not online any more)
themuzic
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Very true Eike.

And I will add, that maybe if we didn't respond (something which I am the most guilty of) this guy would have been talking to himself 33 posts ago.

This case is close and my Troll repellent has been applied.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 15/10/2010 10:42:39


http://www.homestudiotrainer.webs.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/themuzic
Email - homestudiotrainer@yahoo.com
Skype - themuzic
Phone - 773-303-7260
I offer FREE assistance for Studio One (any version) and Presonus hardware, to anyone having issues or anyone who simply wants to learn

Gateway Tower - Intel Core i5 3330 CPU 3GHz 8GB Ram and 64bit Windows 8
[Email] [WWW] [Yahoo!]
Motoko
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Joined: 25/04/2009 08:29:34
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Mac OS X 10.9.3: iMac 21,5" - Core i3 - 8GB Ram
Mac OS X 10.9.3: MacBook Air 13" - Core i5 - 4GB Ram

PreSonus FireStudio Mobile || PreSonus AudioBox 44 VSL || Alesis Active M1 MkII || CME XKey || NI Maschine

PreSonus Studio One Pro 2.6 || Pro Tools 10 || Digital Performer 8 || Ableton Live 9 || Maschine v2

SSL Duende Native || Plugin Alliance Transient Designer, Rack Pro, DrumXchanger || Softube Studio & Mix Bundle || ArtsAcoustic CL1 bundle, Reverb, Big Rock || FabFilter Total Bundle || FXPansion All Plugins || NI Komplete 8 || Synapse Audio DUNE || Tone2 ElectraX || Waldorf Largo || Image-Line Drumaxx || D16 Group Total Everything || Novation V-Synth, Basstation, FX Suite || Camel Audio Alchemy

Motoko || 64 Measures Music || YouTube || Mass Overflow || Manta Tracks
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db
Presonoid
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Joined: 29/07/2010 13:10:59
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I do not want to offend anyone here, so please do not take it that way, but I think some things need to be said...

eike wrote:also, freedom of opinion always means freedom for those you do not want to hear. even if you have good reason for not wanting.


Exactly.

Power Users / Senior members e.t.c
We all have a responsibility to choose our posts and responses carefully if we want this forum to avoid the pitfalls of other forums like one in particular (rival product) that has had so many locked threads over the years. It is one thing to not want that sort of problem on this forum but quite another to not fuel the problem (sorry). What do I mean? Well...if someone does not agree with the intuitiveness of a product and even asked for management to be replaced does I don't think that makes them a spammer or a troll personally.

Of course I disagree with such comments (changing Presonus staff, e.t.c) as PreSonus are one of the best devs (responsive, forward thinking, creative, patient, e.t.c) I have ever come across by a long way. I never want to see that change. But if someone repeatedly posts about something I do not agree with after two posts or so I would just move on and ignore the thread.

We need to be just as careful how we post as new members or anyone else does. Calling someone a spammer or a troll because they do not agree with our perception does not help IMO. Elevating a users response to spammer status would mean they should be added to eikes recent sticky thread for spammers = account closed. Surely not.

People are watching
I'll give an example...I was reading on the Studio One 40+ page GS thread how some people were commenting on how defensive people are on this forum. I was surprised by this as the feedback was clearly negative about this forum. But some people clearly already perceive this forum that way. Sad to see.

PreSonus
They know how easily Forums can degenerate and as eike implied want to keep the forum door open to all. Those who agree and those who do not. Those who are happy and those who are not. I doubt there is any forum on planet earth where every single DAW user is happy. Jonathan and Eike both sidestepped the personal criticism of the "Project manager" because they know it is more productive to side step it than respond to it.

A massive amount of help is offered from PreSonus and forum members every day but it's not so much about the challenges we face in life (or on a forum) but *how* we respond to them.

Some battles are won by simply walking away from them.
I think VG is upset and just feels he probably should not have to read the manual. Tracktion was pretty close to that for me but then I don't mind reading manuals back to back. Difference of opinion. Harmless IMO. With 2,000 + members (definitely more than 1250) and growing we are dealing with a huge number of different backgrounds, opinions, experiences, desires and expectations. All of that in one place (this forum) surely will require a very measured approach to posting from *everyone*, if this forum is to avoid some of the more serious forum issues found elsewhere.
AudioCave
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Joined: 22/04/2009 13:02:36
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Since you use the word "troll" I have to assume you're talking about my calling him a troll. He is, sorry.

I didn't argue with the guy and I actually agreed with some things he said because some of his issues were legit. It was not a matter of being defensive for me, if you read back you'll see me agreeing with him on a few occasions and trying to diffuse what I knew - for sure - was coming. His intent was to cause exactly what happened. He has no intention of using or learning S1 imo, just to argue about it, and I tried to warn a couple of the more helpful members via PM ahead of time because I've seen him do it before.

I knew eventually he'd start hurling personal insults. It's part of his strategy to draw more people into the drama.

It's classic trolling behavior to start a discussion about what may be very legit issues and then draw people into heated debates having to do more with personal subjective things than the actual thing itself. So this case doesn't, in my mind, have any relation whatsoever to how new users are treated here. On the contrary, this was a result that VG planned for and in some ways he got it.

Anyway... I don't believe I argued with the guy at all nor did I dismiss any of his views. I was (I think) respectful and generally neutral until he (as trolls do) put words in my mouth (I politely corrected that) and then personally insulted Jon, then I simply called him a troll.... and he is.

It's true that some have more patience for that kinda thing and sure, there are methods to dealing with it if you know what it is. I'm not sure some participants knew what it was. I did, from the very first post... and in hindsight I wish I'd stayed completely out of it. You see me trying to diffuse it early on by asking him if he was who I thought he was... and he was... and he did exactly what I knew he'd do.

Next time I'll just stay out of it.




This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 15/10/2010 18:54:32

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db
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If you think the guy is a Troll, Space Traveller or John Travolta's brother that's up to you...

My comments were more of a reminder to us all to be careful what we say even if we are faced with a difficult situation or a user being critical. Taking care when we post especially as senior member / users is something we all (me included of course) have a responsibility to do.

Sometimes the best response is no response if the post will only stir things up even more.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 15/10/2010 18:54:54

Dubstep and House Music by Thedmncproject

db vs Studio 360 (Discovery) | S1Answers (FAQ) | S1 Secrets (Tips and Tricks) | S1 Feature Requests

------

i7 920 | 12GB | W8 x64 | Studio One Pro x64 | Samson | A -500 Pro | Echo AudioFire4 | Nvidia GTX 275
AudioCave
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db wrote:If you think the guys is a Troll, Space Traveller or John Travolta's brother that's up to you...

Sometimes the best response is no response if the post will only stir things up even more.


Agreed. Again, I was (earlier) trying to diffuse some of what I knew was coming but next time I'll stay completely out of it and just pop some popcorn.

But again (the net is so impersonal and intent is often hard to deliver), I didn't think he was a troll, I knew that for certain, which triggered my PM's to a couple of really helpful senior members so they wouldn't over-react to what was coming.

I did those PM's while the thread was on page 1 ... so it wasn't a random guess.

Thanks DB/Max. There are certainly times that I wish I had your temperament.







This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 15/10/2010 19:07:38

Win 7 Desktop: I7 860 | 2.8 ghz | 8 gb ram | W7 Home Premium 64
The Audio Cave Website

Studio One Pro • Mackie d8b • Dynaudio BM5a's • M-Audio Audiophile AV30's • KRok Rokit 10s Sub • MOTU 2408 MK3 • Lavry Blue / Black ADA • AT 4050/CM5 • MXL V69 ME • Rode NTK • Oktava MC-012's • Shure Beta 52 • SM57's • Grace M101 • DBX 576 • Summit Audio TLA 50 • Art Pro VLA • Art Tube Pres • PreSonus DigiMax LT • Sony MDR 7506's • PreSonus ACP 88 • Behringer ADA 8000 • Firestudio Mobile • Altiverb 5 • Kontakt 4 - BFD / EZD • Roland D5 • Fender Jazz Bass
db
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Cheers AC

I think you guys have spent an amazing amount of time helping users out with all sorts of detailed help even specific videos (which were also offered in this thread) so long may that continue. IMO this forum is still a great a great place to hang out and IMO the combination of the PreSonus crew and forum members old and new has worked very well considering all he different opinions, thoughts and desires we all have. Thanks for taking my comments the right way. No offence intended to any of you. I need to be just as careful as anyone else with my posts...especially now that I have posted about the subject. >tee hee<

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 15/10/2010 19:16:37

Dubstep and House Music by Thedmncproject

db vs Studio 360 (Discovery) | S1Answers (FAQ) | S1 Secrets (Tips and Tricks) | S1 Feature Requests

------

i7 920 | 12GB | W8 x64 | Studio One Pro x64 | Samson | A -500 Pro | Echo AudioFire4 | Nvidia GTX 275
VG
Prenoob

Joined: 13/10/2010 22:44:33
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Motoko wrote:Right then, I'll cut you a deal:

You stop spamming up the forums with how everything is unacceptable and PreSonus should look for a new project manager and what not, bla bla.

And

I'll stop responding.

So, you blackmail me. It's very "conscious" and "intuitive."

Plus:
Guys like you, AudioCave, themuzic, Kahlbert, .... hate the US Constitution - Freedom of speech, etc. Are you secret North Korean agents?

All of you failed to prove that S1 is intuitive/logical, but keep posting.

themuzic is just a "chicken" - he's afraid to take the challenge - to prove according to scientific criteria of truth, that his statements are valid and not bias.

"Logic" of the above guys is amazing - If they would build a public toilet according to how they built S1, then it would be:

Two separate compartments - for men and women, but instead of the signs with the specified gender, they will put two labels on the top and the bottom - TOILET because it will make it easy-to-use and it's very intuitive in their opinion.

Why? Because if a visitor would like 'to mark the territory' in another compartment - he/she would able to do it because there is no gender specification on the door. (S1 remove the track name and number from the Console and instead if it placed TWO instruments slots there = if you use mixer for volume adjustment - you must guess which one is the track you need to adjust the volume. Because S1 believes this is logical, then nothing user-friendly could be expected from S1 and they prove it by naming me a troll because they believe they never make mistakes.) Take my congratulations.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 15/10/2010 20:19:31

 
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