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blocks, clips, session, matrix or some form of pattern based sequencing
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Michael1985
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But a Arranger and the linear Sequencer should seperated from each other. So I can make my linear Arranging, but can create my Patterns somewhere else, which I can Drag&DRop in Mainwindow (not like FL Studio)
The Performance Function of Sequel is not really useful for flexibel arranging.

But the Step Editors of Sequel for sliced Audio are really nice, which could be good for Studio One!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 24/10/2012 20:47:47

Lokeyfly
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Michael1985

Yes bitwig has the clip arranger along the clip mixer which not even Ableton or FL Studio have. This arranger comes close to my idea or blocks of props reason.

Pure patterns are too unflexible.


Michael1985

27/08/2012 11:25:01 ;Subject: Re:blocks, clips, session, matrix or some form of pattern based sequencing

This is my idea which is really handy:

Eventgroups: Select the Events you want to group, press the group button and in the group menu appears a new group! -rename this group if you want -duplicate and move these groups how you want with the group tool -drag&drop groups from the group menu into the sequencer!


I completely agree with Michael 1985 on event groups style arranging. When I look at how FL Studio, Cubase and Live have their versions, I get a headache.

Reason uses blocks, but I haven't found it all that useful either. There needs to be more of a drag and drop solution
but I do like the linear approach Props Reason has chose to use above the arrangement view. The spreadsheet type matrix Live and others use is good for performance and live. For final song arranging linear is the way to go because the song is ultimately linear (period) and needs to be viewed and finalized that way.

My solution is along the lines of building blocks from loops, but with the same concept of building a list and using drag and drop functionality. Edit a loop (or block) as Michael suggests, by selecting edit, then highlight the events.

If things get out of control, its good to revert back to previous song freezes that could be selected along the way.

Btw, One nice touch with Reason is that the blocks (they reside on top) if made into different colors, leave a nice color hue along the arrangement view below. Quite often, I don't use the blocks as originally intended but I use them to colorize the arrangement to easier see the different song parts or song structure.
In the words of the late great Graucho Marx "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member"

S1 Pro 2.5, Laptop: VAIO i7, 8Gb, Win 7 X64, SP1. Supporting software, too much to list. Audio Interface: 22 VSL, M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Audiophile 192 PCI-e, Controllers: Novation SL Mk II, M-Audio Axiom, Guitar controllers by Roland GR-50, Percussion controllers: Roland Octapad II, Akai MPD-18. Guitars by: Fender, Gibson, Gretch, Guild, Martin, Taylor, & Yamaha
Michael1985
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There are four working steps when creating a song:

The first is the songwriting.
The second the recording of vocals, guitare, keys etc and mixing it
The third the ARRANGING.
The fourth the Mastering.

Studio One is really really weak in step 3. You cannot be flexible here even with the new folder tracks. I really miss a possibility to play around with my songparts without "inserting silence", be patient dont warp my automation data which is really complex and fine adjusted in my projects and when I move my parts around with the new folder editing function, my automation breakpoints at the part borders are moving with it and all the automation is warped.
The perfect solution has Bitwig as mentioned.

The point is:
Everything should be in its own Microcosm and I can move all the Microcosms around how I want without warping the automations

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 13/01/2013 17:22:24

MarkyGoldstein
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I think most tape machine DAWs are weak at (fast) arranging. And Live is missing the possibility to play slightly ahead of time - too much Lego. The perfect musical DAW arrangement engine still needs to be invented.
My system: Mac Pro 2012v with the latest OS-X and the latest Studio One DAW and the latest plugins. It's always up2date, to every component. I use Internet studio management software (PluginUpdate, Mac OS X App Store, Update Checkers, KVR, etc.). It's the bleeding latest with every bug fix available applied.
Michael1985
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MarkyGoldstein wrote:And Live is missing the possibility to play slightly ahead of time - too much Lego.


Could you explain this please? I dont know what you mean.

MarkyGoldstein wrote:The perfect musical DAW arrangement engine still needs to be invented.


....So let as start now to help the developers to do that!
MarkyGoldstein
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And Live is missing the possibility to play slightly ahead of time - too much Lego.


It's a bit difficult to explain.

Thing in Live is:
You have clips and these start at let's say zero. The beginning of a measure. Let's say a clip has 4 beats. That's fine for some music, to start exactly when the clip starts. But in emotional music, often things are played upfront (or laid back), for example 20ms before the actual beat. So to be able to bring this into the lego game (looping, cycling, painting), you need to be able to loop sounds "ahead of time". These issues are still to be resolved in Ableton Live and maybe it's not a simple thing to do, but I think it's doable.

Music is not really a grid, it's just near a grid.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 14/01/2013 12:54:15

My system: Mac Pro 2012v with the latest OS-X and the latest Studio One DAW and the latest plugins. It's always up2date, to every component. I use Internet studio management software (PluginUpdate, Mac OS X App Store, Update Checkers, KVR, etc.). It's the bleeding latest with every bug fix available applied.
Michael1985
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MarkyGoldstein wrote:
And Live is missing the possibility to play slightly ahead of time - too much Lego.


you need to be able to loop sounds "ahead of time".




I know what you mean. But because you use in every kind of music events which contain audio or MIDI, there is EVERYWHERE an order of events which contain audio and midi. And where are groups of audio and MIDI, there can be parts which can be arrangent like in ableton.

I know a orchestral arranger, who uses Ableton because he likes the overview he misses in most of the other softwares.


P.S.:
It is not that hard or even impossible to do: just do your grid movement and create another clip which fits into it. This needs two different clips to do and you can create every "off grid progression" which will be possible.
With Ableton you can create even the most complex polyrhytms measure against measure you can imaging which is not possible that easy with linear software!>>>>just advantages!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 14/01/2013 13:16:52

Lokeyfly
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I think some of you guys need to jump on the Ableton Live bandwagon.

There are many ways of arranging, and pardon me as it is just my opinion, (Forums are all about opinions) matrix and pattern based sequencing is fantastic for live, or getting a good groove going. It is not the end all of writing music. Many people develop their inspiration from many different ways. Blues, Jazz, Funk, Country, you name it.

There are also disadvantages to Ableton Lives way of doing things. Just read some of the Live forums. Often people will be two/thirds through a song, and lose the tangible linear progression to a song because you know what? Music, when finished is linear. In other words.....finishing the song.

Yes, S1 does need to switch to other parts of a song easier. I feel it is too fundimental in this regard. There's not even a way to reverse loop (skip) forward! That is in my estimation, pathetic. They have to seriously get with this. But do it base on matrix,or pattern based? No thank you please.

Anyway, have fun!




This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 15/01/2013 04:29:07

In the words of the late great Graucho Marx "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member"

S1 Pro 2.5, Laptop: VAIO i7, 8Gb, Win 7 X64, SP1. Supporting software, too much to list. Audio Interface: 22 VSL, M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Audiophile 192 PCI-e, Controllers: Novation SL Mk II, M-Audio Axiom, Guitar controllers by Roland GR-50, Percussion controllers: Roland Octapad II, Akai MPD-18. Guitars by: Fender, Gibson, Gretch, Guild, Martin, Taylor, & Yamaha
DS3000
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Joined: 26/01/2013 05:15:08
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Looks like there's already a lot of support for this, but I wanted to bump this thread to show my support for the pattern/song approach.

Count me with those people who think Propellerheads got it just about right with Blocks. Ableton Live's Session View is fine for what it is, but I think Blocks strikes a better balance, giving users enough of the "linear" feel of a traditional DAW while giving lots of room for creativity in arrangements. I'd love to see the Blocks approach -- or something similar to it -- with the more fleshed-out and complete DAW features of Studio One.

As one reviewer of Reason pointed out, "Blocks" is a simple idea, but one that turns out to be extremely useful in practice. Another reviewer said that Blocks was so useful that users would miss it when using another DAW -- something I've found to be true. But as much as I like Reason, I've got VSTs and external gear sitting on the sidelines when I use it. I'd love to have an environment where I can have the best of both worlds.

I've been impressed with Studio One so far, and I'm looking forward to whatever other advances they come up with. I'm also glad to see that PreSonus is responsive to this user community. If they can implement this pattern/block approach with a solution that's easy, practical and musically useful, I think they'll have something unique in the world of full-featured DAWs -- and an absolute winner.
Psochs
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for a more friendly way to rearrange

I think Reason blocks is awesome. but I would like it to graphical drag and drop. ny thought is this, connect it to the marker list.

It would be so awesome if you could capture markers and have them as one of the panels to the right of the arrange page. So along with instruments,effects,sounds mad Files, there would be a Markers list. the user could drag marker clips into any order to create rearrangements.
User could select View>ReArrangement>(here the user could choose between several arrangements). A window popup and the markers from the marker list could be dragged and dropped in an order. There would also be the option to have an alternate marker tracks. User can select which marker list to use to create an arrangement. Inside the ReArrangement panel would be export options 1)Export to new version 2) Permanently rearrange 3)export mixdown of selected arrangement

Something like that.

Studio ONe is by far my preferred environment this would help my non-linear composition style.
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MarkyGoldstein
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bump.
My system: Mac Pro 2012v with the latest OS-X and the latest Studio One DAW and the latest plugins. It's always up2date, to every component. I use Internet studio management software (PluginUpdate, Mac OS X App Store, Update Checkers, KVR, etc.). It's the bleeding latest with every bug fix available applied.
Lokeyfly
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I'm pretty flexible with almost anything Presonus would be willing to develop that made multiple loop points available. I'm not that fond of blocks and don't use them in Reason or those old versions of Cubase. I guess I'm hoping for something streamlined. I think the markers open up some interesting possibilities. It would be very visible even with color so the possibilies are there. Looking forward to something/anything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 27/04/2013 13:48:55

In the words of the late great Graucho Marx "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member"

S1 Pro 2.5, Laptop: VAIO i7, 8Gb, Win 7 X64, SP1. Supporting software, too much to list. Audio Interface: 22 VSL, M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Audiophile 192 PCI-e, Controllers: Novation SL Mk II, M-Audio Axiom, Guitar controllers by Roland GR-50, Percussion controllers: Roland Octapad II, Akai MPD-18. Guitars by: Fender, Gibson, Gretch, Guild, Martin, Taylor, & Yamaha
muziksculp
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Joined: 27/01/2011 02:21:20
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This thread was started on July 29th, 2010 ...... so, it's about time Presonus adds this feature to Studio One Pro V3

If they don't, I would only think they are not able to add this due to some technical constraints, or are ignoring one of the most requested features to be added to Studio One Pro.

Hopefully they are reading our requests on this forum, and will deliver this feature in version 3 !

Cheers,
Muziksculp

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 29/04/2013 08:07:36

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Michael1985
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Such a feature is already there with folder track editing. But it has some gaps in the automation handling.

so you cannot work with separated automation together with the folder track editing commands like cut paste copy and move because the automation just stays in place. Even deleting is not possible.

this is a huge gap because automations are also a part of the arrangement.
muziksculp
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Michael1985 wrote:Such a feature is already there with folder track editing. But it has some gaps in the automation handling.

so you cannot work with separated automation together with the folder track editing commands like cut paste copy and move because the automation just stays in place. Even deleting is not possible.

this is a huge gap because automations are also a part of the arrangement.


Sorry.. but No... Folder Tracks are NOT equal to Pattern-Based editing feature.

Dear Presonus Development : Please add a Pattern/Clip editing feature !

Thanks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 15/05/2013 17:55:52

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