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How do you guys do this?
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hibidy
Presonoid

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overcoat wrote:sI'm a hobbyist at best.


That's that problem. There is no "hobbyist" version. We should leave pro for the "pros"





Ok, sorry, I gotta vent tonight......
New computer:

2.6.2/win7x64 ultimate/SSD os and library/i7 4770/16GB ram

Focusrite saffire 14/Novation impulse 49/tons of VST goodies

matthewgorman
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Matthew, how does that help? It's a line switcher.


You have up to 6 output pairs that you want to go through 1 set of speakers (5 cue mixes plus the main). There isnt any other way that i see to accomplish what you want. Maybe not that unit per se, but to accomplish your goal will need external hardware. The monitor station or central station cant handle the number of inputs you require.
Lokeyfly
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mikemanthei wrote: However, your second message gets close. Let's drop all other discussions and start there.
Agreed.

Sorry for the delay Mike. Ive spent the week creating audio stems trying to make room for a huge sample library I just bought, and I can't afford to screw with those mixes. I will say I managed to keep the mixes very close if not exact when converting each track to audio. Admittedly, I was beyond brain dead yesterday. That library also had me up to 4:00am last night as it loaded so slowly.
I won't be at my multi audio interface computer until Monday but I will look at where we last discussed. I know exactly what you're looking to do. That aux scenario was my logical conclusion, though I can appreciate you've been striving to solve this for some time. With that, it may utterly be a limitation within S1 to solo within those aux mixes (internally as you say). I don't doubt you've tried everything you can and are left asking (hardware/or internal solution?).

I honestly have to point to a hardware solution with the ability to run separate mixes from there (lets say with 4 monitor auxes off a mini mixer), then run that back to an input in your multi channel interface (or "Monitor In") you use with Studio One. This way, you monitor right there in S1 without having to resort to separate headphones (or monitor mix) on your outboard mixer.

I've taken this ability a bit for granted as I have a Yamaha ProMix 01, and it's fully automated, motorized faders, midi assignable, the works. It has 4 aux sends, and setting up sub mixes is a thing of beauty. Since I also monitor S1 through that mixer, I sort of get it all with that ol' girl! Even using PT, I kept to this theme of monitoring separate groups.

To be fair, the monitor assigning you are doing is more extensive then most home users who have a DAW, and does typically require at some point hardware. Though, I'd (like you) want to return those subgroups back to S1 to hear each persons separate mix.

I'm entertaining the thought of you Rewiring with Reaper, but I still think you are left with the same conundrum. Having a "fully discrete" mix out of S1, or your audio interface. The limits seem apparent.

I will do my best to check further, but you may want to consider the small mixer option. Or use your present mixer.

BTW, love Soundcaft consoles. I almost bought one years ago, but went with Amek (TAC). A similar very punchy EQ British console. There's no substitute for a good board with high quality pre's.

Attached, load the higher res 1920 x 1200 signal flow below. JPetit provides insightful flow diagrams.
Studio One V2.6 V1.9 1920 x1200 Signal Flow.jpg
[Thumb - Studio One V2.6 V1.9 1920 x1200  Signal Flow.jpg]
 Description S1 Signal Flow 2.6 v1.9, 1920 X 1200 [Disk] Download
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 28/06/2014 20:27:00

In the words of the late great Graucho Marx "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member"

S1 Pro 2.5, Laptop: VAIO i7, 8Gb, Win 7 X64, SP1. Supporting software, too much to list. Audio Interface: 22 VSL, M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Audiophile 192 PCI-e, Controllers: Novation SL Mk II, M-Audio Axiom, Guitar controllers by Roland GR-50, Percussion controllers: Roland Octapad II, Akai MPD-18. Guitars by: Fender, Gibson, Gretch, Guild, Martin, Taylor, & Yamaha
SwitchBack
Presonoid
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@OP:
Not saying that what you want to do with your DAW is impossible, but with an 1818VSL available isn't it much easier to set up your monitor mixes there? It also avoids latency issues in the monitors, something you may encounter when you try doing it all with your DAW...
mikemanthei
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Joined: 05/06/2014 05:34:20
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matthewgorman wrote:
Matthew, how does that help? It's a line switcher.


You have up to 6 output pairs that you want to go through 1 set of speakers (5 cue mixes plus the main). There isnt any other way that i see to accomplish what you want. Maybe not that unit per se, but to accomplish your goal will need external hardware. The monitor station or central station cant handle the number of inputs you require.


Oh, I see where you were coming from. But using a line switch would interrupt the original path...

I'm fairly certain that external hardware is in the future, but I'm hoping to hear what others are doing to solve this issue and maybe I can get some ideas (other than keeping my behemoth of a mixing console powered up)
mikemanthei
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Thanks for the reply.
... it may utterly be a limitation within S1 to solo within those aux mixes (internally as you say).
True, and if this is so, then I'll return to my original question and elicit input from other users to see how they listen to outputs that don't route to the CR monitors. I don't like my options at this point, so I'm hoping that someone elses solution will give me another idea.

I honestly have to point to a hardware solution with the ability to run separate mixes from there (lets say with 4 monitor auxes off a mini mixer), then run that back to an input in your multi channel interface (or "Monitor In") you use with Studio One. This way, you monitor right there in S1 without having to resort to separate headphones (or monitor mix) on your outboard mixer.
Yes, I've pondered a solution much like that. The main issues with that are:
* I lose inputs by running monitor mixes back into the interface. I'm already dropping from over 50 inputs, 48 converters to ... (cringe) 12. It's practically claustrophobic.
* I'm trying to get rid of the analog console. Recent physical limitations make this a necessity... True, a smaller mixer would be more convenient, but buying another analog mixer when I'm trying to get rid of one is... ummm.. you know... it just seems counter-productive.

I've taken this ability a bit for granted as I have a Yamaha ProMix 01, and it's fully automated, motorized faders, midi assignable, the works. It has 4 aux sends, and setting up sub mixes is a thing of beauty. Since I also monitor S1 through that mixer, I sort of get it all with that ol' girl! Even using PT, I kept to this theme of monitoring separate groups.
So, are you running all your inputs through the ProMix first and extracting your monitor mixes on incoming channels before it even gets to your digital converter? That would be confusing to be building your monitor/headphone mixes from separate locations.

To be fair, the monitor assigning you are doing is more extensive then most home users who have a DAW, and does typically require at some point hardware.
I'm slowly warming up to the idea that I'll need quite a bit of extra hardware to make this go. Although that seems silly. It would all be unnecessary if Presonus would just make the solo button function as it is explained in the manual.

Really... I can't yet figure out what the solo button does on an output channel. If it "solos" the channel and sends it to only the output that it is already assigned to, then it does absolutely nothing. It was already going there before you pushed the solo button. Certainly someone in the design department thought this through a little more deeply than that.
I'm still holding out hope that someone has found a way to make it work as advertised, and I just have some obscure setting set wonky somewhere. (yes, "wonky" is a highly technical term)

I will do my best to check further, but you may want to consider the small mixer option. Or use your present mixer.
I appreciate you digging into this. ... and I've considered mixer options. As previously mentioned, using the present mixer in my present physical condition is no longer possible. A smaller mixer may not be possible either. It depends on ergonomics.

BTW, love Soundcaft consoles. I almost bought one years ago, but went with Amek (TAC). A similar very punchy EQ British console. There's no substitute for a good board with high quality pre's.
Agreed. Between that and EQ's that actually work, it's easy to get spoiled.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 29/06/2014 05:47:22

mikemanthei
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SwitchBack wrote:@OP:
Not saying that what you want to do with your DAW is impossible, but with an 1818VSL available isn't it much easier to set up your monitor mixes there? It also avoids latency issues in the monitors, something you may encounter when you try doing it all with your DAW...


My first attempts at using the VSL software resulted in a very disjointed and confusing workflow. Mixing pre-recorded tracks and live inputs meant that I had to build the headphone mixes from 2 different applications.
I find that using the "Z" button allows me to avoid latency and let's me mix from a single app. Also, my attempts at solo-ing a mix while in the VSL software interface didn't work either. Have you found a method that works? I'd be happy to learn from you.
Lokeyfly
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mikemanthei wrote: I'm fairly certain that external hardware is in the future, but I'm hoping to hear what others are doing to solve this issue and maybe I can get some ideas (other than keeping my behemoth of a mixing console powered up)
I really thought I'd find something in the way of a summing mixer (after all, it's not like you'd need mic/line inputs and gain). Nothing too esoteric as summing mixers get pricey because most who even care to use them are trying to allow very high analog circuitry to sum. Still, something with reputable preamps like a Mackie or even from Soundcraft would be useful.

There are some nice 2 aux send rack mount designs and that would effectively give you 3 discrete buss channels. The one already in S1 and the 2 returned. Plus you have cuing possibilities.

Even thought of a control surface where you could benefit from motorized faders, but nothing with much in the way of auxiliary sends there either. Besides S1 only allows for 1 audio interface at a time. They need to fix that soon.

Back to Internal Discrete Monitoring: Try this, Proofing this out on my laptop but try taking each Aux Bus as discussed earlier and insert the Pipeline Stereo Module for each of those Aux monitor groups. In the Pipeline Stereo VST, under "Send", select "Audio I/O Setup". That will bring up the Audio I/O of your Audio Interface. Select there the individual channel you wish to monitor out on. This pipelines your channels out. You may want to play around that way. I only have my laptop in front of me with a 2 in/2out 22VSL, but it seems to be working (I just don't have the numerous outs to prove it out).

Give it a whirl.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 29/06/2014 16:18:34

In the words of the late great Graucho Marx "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member"

S1 Pro 2.5, Laptop: VAIO i7, 8Gb, Win 7 X64, SP1. Supporting software, too much to list. Audio Interface: 22 VSL, M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Audiophile 192 PCI-e, Controllers: Novation SL Mk II, M-Audio Axiom, Guitar controllers by Roland GR-50, Percussion controllers: Roland Octapad II, Akai MPD-18. Guitars by: Fender, Gibson, Gretch, Guild, Martin, Taylor, & Yamaha
mikemanthei
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I really thought I'd find something in the way of a summing mixer (after all, it's not like you'd need mic/line inputs and gain). Nothing too esoteric as summing mixers get pricey because most who even care to use them are trying to allow very high analog circuitry to sum. Still, something with reputable preamps like a Mackie or even from Soundcraft would be useful.

There are some nice 2 aux send rack mount designs and that would effectively give you 3 discrete buss channels. The one already in S1 and the 2 returned. Plus you have cuing possibilities.

Even thought of a control surface where you could benefit from motorized faders, but nothing with much in the way of auxiliary sends there either. Besides S1 only allows for 1 audio interface at a time. They need to fix that soon.
I'm not sure why you're trying to solve it this way. It appears you're attempting to help me get enough aux sends, and I have at least 18. Is there something I'm missing in your design?

Back to Internal Discrete Monitoring: Try this, Proofing this out on my laptop but try taking each Aux Bus as discussed earlier and insert the Pipeline Stereo Module for each of those Aux monitor groups. In the Pipeline Stereo VST, under "Send", select "Audio I/O Setup". That will bring up the Audio I/O of your Audio Interface. Select there the individual channel you wish to monitor out on. This pipelines your channels out. You may want to play around that way. I only have my laptop in front of me with a 2 in/2out 22VSL, but it seems to be working (I just don't have the numerous outs to prove it out).
I can tell you're really getting creative by trying to use Pipeline. I don't see how that helps me solo up that mix. It burns outputs, and if I attempt to bring it back into S1 so I can interrupt the Control Room mix with it, I have to burn inputs too.
Is that where you were going with that? It's getting convoluted enough so that it would be easier for me to walk to the other room and put on a set of cans...

...edited to add a smiley

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 30/06/2014 06:24:22

Lokeyfly
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Is there a way to do this in S1, or have you all found a workaround that you'd like to share?

For a discrete monitor mix, this works for me.

I'm not interrupting the mix using an outboard mixer with all feeds going to it.
I seldom need more than 5 separate headphone cues.
but that's (with the console) really quite cumbersome to drag along to the DAW world. Not to mention, it's time to leave the analog world behind.

It takes a certain amount of analog hardware even to feed 5 performers with a discrete mix you are looking at.

In a live setup, I often dealt with a separate monitor mix to performers where obviously one musician is hearing too much of someone, or vice-versa. Studio's typically don't often have to record everyone at once (and particularly avoids any audible bleed), and much of the monitoring and cueing can be sorted right from the cue mix, as described even in the S1 manual. Yes, we know that's not what you want.

Since what you are describing by feeding several performers a unique monitor mix (and your cueing of them without disturbing the mix) sounds to me anyway like a console solution. You asked, and I shared.
In the words of the late great Graucho Marx "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member"

S1 Pro 2.5, Laptop: VAIO i7, 8Gb, Win 7 X64, SP1. Supporting software, too much to list. Audio Interface: 22 VSL, M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Audiophile 192 PCI-e, Controllers: Novation SL Mk II, M-Audio Axiom, Guitar controllers by Roland GR-50, Percussion controllers: Roland Octapad II, Akai MPD-18. Guitars by: Fender, Gibson, Gretch, Guild, Martin, Taylor, & Yamaha
mikemanthei
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It takes a certain amount of analog hardware even to feed 5 performers with a discrete mix you are looking at.
No, not really, nothing except some power amps to take the signals up to headphone level.

Studio's typically don't often have to record everyone at once (and particularly avoids any audible bleed), and much of the monitoring and cueing can be sorted right from the cue mix, as described even in the S1 manual. Yes, we know that's not what you want.
Are you sure we're still talking about the same thing now? I believe if S1 behaved as it claims in the manual, the problem would be solved.

Is there a way for us to have a phone conversation?
matthewgorman
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Are you sure we're still talking about the same thing now? I believe if S1 behaved as it claims in the manual, the problem would be solved.


The circumstances you are in are external from the software, so technically it is performing as expected. You just don't have any type of speaker/headphones attached to those outputs to be able to hear anything.

No, not really, nothing except some power amps to take the signals up to headphone level.


A headphone amp (such as the hp4) will have a passthrough option on it So in theory you could have one for each output pair and just plug headphones into the unit for the mix you want to monitor. the hp4 will passt the audio through to the performers. That may be the most cost effective and compact way to accomplish your goal
Matt

Lenovo Thinkpad E520, Windows 7 64bt, 8 GB RAM, Intel i5 Processor
StarTech EC13942 34mm Expresscard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16839158010&Tpk=startech%20EC13942
S1Pro V2 (Special Dog Balls Edition), Melodyne Editor, Nomad Factory Studio Bundle, Waves Renaissance Bundle, Firestudio Tube, Faderport, Monitor Station, HP4 Headphone Amp Yamaha HS50 Monitors.
Shure Mics (57's, 58's, and a 1953 Unidyne), Various AKG, Various MXL Ribbon Mics.

1974 P-Bass, 1990 Jazz, 1985 Guild B302, Ampeg SVT with 4x10x15 cabinet

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mikemanthei
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A headphone amp (such as the hp4) will have a passthrough option on it So in theory you could have one for each output pair and just plug headphones into the unit for the mix you want to monitor.
That's a workaround that I came up with as well. Or at least it's very similar. I thought of monitoring the levels USING the pass-through, but if I understand right, you're taking about using the HP4 *AS* the monitoring amp.
I like the solution from an electronic standpoint. The cost and added clutter of 5 HP4's is a bit prohibitive. It does get me thinking though... about some other old gear lying around that might help.

I ordered a racked headphone amp 2 days ago with both rear-mounted and front-mounted headphone jacks so I can "jack in" and monitor that way. It's a workaround, but it (should) work in the short term. I'm a bit hesitant to say it's going to work, as plugging in a 2nd set of cans might change the performers level, as it will change the impedance when I jack in. They get a little testy when their volume drops. But at $150, I'm going to give it a try.

The circumstances you are in are external from the software, so technically it is performing as expected. You just don't have any type of speaker/headphones attached to those outputs to be able to hear anything.
Interesting observation, and I'm wondering if you have any old-school audio experience (analog consoles), or have you always used DAWs?. I do take (respectful) exception to your claim that the software is performing as expected. I disagree strongly, in fact. I'm only "external from the software" because of a bug in S1 that forces me to be.
matthewgorman
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Interesting observation, and I'm wondering if you have any old-school audio experience (analog consoles), or have you always used DAWs?. I do take (respectful) exception to your claim that the software is performing as expected. I disagree strongly, in fact. I'm only "external from the software" because of a bug in S1 that forces me to be.


I do have analog experience. My foray into DAWs maybe covers the last 4 years or so. However, my analog experience was as an artist, not an engineer, so I really can only speak to the "surface" of your problem, maybe not the in depth view that some other can provide.

Its quite alright to disagree, and we may come to discover that I am wrong. If you speak to my wife, it happens quite often, although not with the regularity that she would suggest. When I say that S1 is working properly, its within this context. You have the routing completed for your needs. If you had 5 sets of speakers, and soloed cue mix 1, thats all you would hear. You are only missing the 5 sets of speakers. I can understand that the perception is that soloing output 3-4 should solo that signal in the control room. But output 3-4 is going to the performers, and we can't change that. Analog consoles have this feature wired into the hardware. DAWS do not. You have to get the hardware to do that. One of the reasons for that is cost. A typical home studio does not need 5 different mixes. Most times you don't have enough inputs to record that many instruments at once. A larger studio is using the DAW as a tape machine, has everything coming in through the console, where this type of routing is inherent to the board.

This link is the only product I have seen that can come close to addressing your application. Note the first bullet point for the product. Sorry about the cost.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/M3PHmkII/


Matt

Lenovo Thinkpad E520, Windows 7 64bt, 8 GB RAM, Intel i5 Processor
StarTech EC13942 34mm Expresscard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16839158010&Tpk=startech%20EC13942
S1Pro V2 (Special Dog Balls Edition), Melodyne Editor, Nomad Factory Studio Bundle, Waves Renaissance Bundle, Firestudio Tube, Faderport, Monitor Station, HP4 Headphone Amp Yamaha HS50 Monitors.
Shure Mics (57's, 58's, and a 1953 Unidyne), Various AKG, Various MXL Ribbon Mics.

1974 P-Bass, 1990 Jazz, 1985 Guild B302, Ampeg SVT with 4x10x15 cabinet

http://soundcloud.com/stars_apart
ricstudioc
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Seem like a hardware issue/limitation - certainly on my 828mkIII I can set up different mixes, and simply check off a box where switching tabs on the mixer brings it to the front, so I can always tap into what the talent is hearing.

Ric

"The amazing thing about the dancing bear is not how gracefully it dances - it's that it dances at all."
 
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