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Motoko
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Thaty wrote:VG, Console, Automation, The bottom line, etc.. I have the same feeling about that. It is so obviously, especially I can't understand why devs decided to place automation to separate track not connected to source instrument/Audio track. And there is even no keyb action to hide them This is just ridicules


Motoko wrote:
As for automation? I think there's some real intuitive stuff going on in S1, for me that is. The only thing I'm missing is something like Hyperdraw at the moment.

But it seems pretty logical to me as far as automation goes.

a) you do it within the midi editor if you want to have your automation glued to your clip.

b) hit the 'A' button to set up automation directly under an instrument track, which I use a lot for performance / creative automation

c) set up an independant instrument track for all other automation.

Setting these up is very easy, no first creating tracks. Then selecting what you want automated, no just drag the parameter from the parameter window on the control link system in the upper left corner by using the hand icon. Drag it onto the arrangement and everything is set-up automatically.


So in conclusion there's three ways of automation approach embedded in the S1 system and all is drag and drop enabled. Take the approach you work best with.

And there is no need to work on a separate track, just hit 'A' and you'll switch to the automation lanes directly under the midi and audio data. As for midi automation you can even do that in the midi editor and embed the automation in the midi clip...

Please, read before posted untrue assumptions.
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Thaty
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Motoko, I'll show you a screenshot of my project when I'll be at home. There are more automation then instrument/audio tracks in any of my project. I am very-very pedantic when it come to automation Every track has at least one automation line. Instrumental tracks very ofter has 2..6 automation lines.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

So let's pretend we see my bunches of automation tracks mess now. We can come two ways

1) Create separate automation track for every automation line
2) Hide all automation behind instrument/audio track


And now let's talk about why these two ways are not acceptable...
The first way is bad because

Even with my 27" monitor I can't see all the instrument/audio/automation tracks at once on screen. Yes, I can zoom out to a super tiny view and see them all, but then there is no sense in that case cuz I can't see gradation of automation values. NOT ACCEPTABLE!
If there were keyb actions to
* Show automation for selected track
* Show automation for all tracks
* Hide automation for selected track
* Hide automation for all tracks


That would be totally acceptable. But in that case my four automation tracks should be linked to instrument track what is not possible in S1 for now. Hope it will be possible in future

The second way is bad because
When I press 'A' button to show automation for selected track, then I see total automation lines mess There are
* Volume automation
* Cut-off automation
* Reverb automation
* Some stutter/looper/etc... automation


NOT ACCEPTABLE!

The only REALLY COOL way of automation I've found in Studio One is Per-clip automation! Guys, this is so great, I can't tell you how I missed that so much after flinging Reason 4. But NO AGAIN!!!! It is not complete! It can handle only instrument's automation, but not instrument's insert/send automation


PRESONUS, just listen to forum folks, complete it. Do Studio One really great piece of software!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 14/10/2010 12:01:29

Motoko
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Right, I'm not trying to be an A$$ or anything, but why such a loud post?

I posted my previous post because of the fact that the remark you made was not true. Obviously with a lot of extra arguments and personal opinion I can see why that remark would be true for you. But as it stand you can hide automation tracks with a keyboard command. Maybe not the way you like it, or need it, but it still does hide automation tracks.

Another thing, that kind of gets me a bit annoyed is the last remark you made about that PreSonus should listen to their users.

I'm not sure how long you've been around, but PreSonus is one of the very few companies that actually engage in end-user dialogs here on the forums and have listened and responded to a great extend to user feedback.

And although things might currently not fit in your workflow, or work the way you expect them to, doesn't validate the loud NOT ACCEPTABLE comments.

If you don't seem to be able to work with S1 at this point in time, exactly the way you like to. Then go find some other software. If you have interest in an open discussion on how Studio One can be improved, I'll be gladly inviting you to join the discussion. If you have problems you can't sort out yourself, then there's a whole group of people here that are quite happy with S1 has been able to give them so far that will help you without any problem.

Bear in mind Studio One is in it's first generation and there's lots of ground to be covered still. But coming in here raving and ranting about how it's unaceptable that stuff doesn't work like you want it to. And then not even taking the time to really look into the software, that kind of gets on my nerve a bit. And folks that 've been around here know I'm usually very patient.

Thaty wrote: It can handle only instrument's automation, but not instrument's insert/send automation


It can hadle this very well, as in each of the places where you can edit automation you can select the automation of the instrument parameter, the insert parameters and the corresponding audio channel parameters.

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gezzyboy
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Console:
Particularly - there is no track names in the Console, but duplicates instruments without providing the name of the track = loosing time on identifying the track = not intuitive, not easy to use. Why did you put the column - Instruments (at the left) WITHOUT any relation to the track (names, ...) if you have it in the mixer? Bring it in the mixer and remove the column.


Tracks and Info:
If I press the Info - the displayed info is not in alliance with the track, but on the top. Why? It's not suitable and confusing. Info also missed vital info/features of the track - the list of instruments, plugings, quantize, etc. Why S1 din't make it similar to Logic Pro which is more useful regarding this? This would make the work with instruments/pluging much easier and intuitive.

Logically - working with tracks requires instruments/plugings within the track info as the primary location and the Console should be the secondary. That would be intuitive and easy to use.

Solo and Mute buttons have a dash on the top and due to this they look like something else. Why didn't you remove the dash and increase the height of the letters to make them more recognizable?


I have to agree with VG after trying S1 in at the deepend with an entire track,with loads of audio/instruments & automation I found myself having to take time out to find what I needed within both the arranger and the console mainly for these reasons;

The Mixer does not follow the arranger tracks properly ie if you have lots of tracks in the console only the the ones currently in view can be toggled,if it's outside this window you have to manually go to the other screen and horizontally scroll to find the track your working on.This is very frustrating compounded by the fixed colour scheme which makes identifing the chosen track difficult.


This could be easily rectifified with a bolder scheme and vertically stackable mixer channels,I need to see as much of the mixer as possible otherwise it's like painting your hallway through the letterbox! (excuse the analogy)
i will pay for a license when i'm satisfied it works properyl <- does not fly here
Thaty
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Motoko, I am sorry for been such loud, but you know, I could not handle such disappointment. Don't take me wrong, I like S1 and understand it is only at the early version comparing to cubase/logic or even reaper.

I just wanna tell you I've spend lot of time reporting bugs and posting nice feature requests in reaper forum when I was thinking I can help improve it and make it my DAW #1. But you know, There are still a lot of popular request that reaper developers ignore http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?do=issuelist&projectid=2&issuetypeid=elevatedFRs . They could implement them, but instead of that, they add more and more not common needed features, those features are buggy and not complete, each new release they try to fix them and previous bugs. And that goes on and on...

I am not long time on presonus forum and using S1 for a two weeks only. So I am afraid that this situation can repeat here.

Anyway, talking on reaper and other forums taught me that simple screen shots or video explains better then a thousand words. Today in the evening I'll post video explaining what I meant in my loud post, cuz I still can't find out how to show/hide automation tracks for selected track, etc...

No offense

P.S. are you from S1 dev team?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 14/10/2010 14:20:35

Motoko
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No offense taken, but I've seen a tendency of new people coming on these forums and demanding this, demanding that and basically bashing the hell out of S1 and not contributing in a constructive manner. Sometimes even being angry about functionality they claim is missing, when they just didn't bother to take a closer look.

Which I think is a shame, not so much in terms of S1 not needing any additional functionality, because it does in my opinion. There's still a long road to be traveled. But the main reason I think it's a bit of a loss is because these forums have always been of excellent attitude and overall very friendly. I would hate to see these forums evolve into something as nasty as other forums have. Where everybody knows best and everybody else knows nothing.

If you wouldn't mind posting a video, that would be great.

No, I'm not on the dev team. Just a very (sometimes maybe too) enthusiastic user.

You can right-click on the track header to show/hide automation for that specific track.

Double clicking on the track header will take you straight to the connected audio channel in the console.

Another thought I'd like to throw in there is that for the most part all the discussion about mapping instrument tracks to mixer tracks seems to be based around 1 instrument track corresponding with 1 audio channel. There is obviously also a lot of cases where there's multiple instrument tracks running into a single instance of a plugin, which has multiple outputs.

Just curious how you would like to see that handled?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 14/10/2010 14:35:53

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AudioCave
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VG wrote:
AudioCave wrote:All I can say to you is to read the manual

Finally - you indirectly admitted that S1 is not that intuitive... That's what i am talking about.


Uh... what I said was if it's not intuitive to you the only thing really left is to read the manual - and of course ask for help. Not sure why you seem to need an admission or affirmation of your own feelings. If you feel it's unintuitive that's all that should matter to you. Please don't twist my words. I agreed that the info space needs more info and that some people may not find it intuitive. That really applies to any DAW, it's a big planet we live on.

I didn't find it that way when I first used it but you aren't me and I don't think you want to be.

I respect your feelings about that. It's ok. There are lots of things I think could be better with S1 so you're not alone.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 14/10/2010 17:20:32

Kahlbert
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VG wrote:
AudioCave wrote:All I can say to you is to read the manual

Finally - you indirectly admitted that S1 is not that intuitive... That's what i am talking about.

This must be the most ridiculous sentence that I read in quite a while (and I've been in silly places, you know).

Basic operation in S1 is pretty much as intuitive as it gets (and I know other software fairly well, before you ask).

For any in depth functions in any software of that complexity you just have to dig a little deeper. If you don't know that nobody can help you - even though I really appreciate the nice guys here trying to. Me, I'm sadly losing patience quickly when people show such an attitude without even bother to have a second look or listen to helpful people (this doesn't mean only you but several other writers in this all ridiculous thread).

I'm out before I even got in. New personal record.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 14/10/2010 17:57:10

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jonathan
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gezzyboy wrote:
If I press the Info - the displayed info is not in alliance with the track, but on the top. Why? It's not suitable and confusing. Info also missed vital info/features of the track - the list of instruments, plugings, quantize, etc. Why S1 din't make it similar to Logic Pro which is more useful regarding this? This would make the work with instruments/pluging much easier and intuitive.

You can click on the keyboard icon on any instrument track to pull up the virtual instrument to which it is connected. Similarly, you can press [F11] to pull up the insert device rack for any audio track.
gezzyboy wrote:The Mixer does not follow the arranger tracks properly ie if you have lots of tracks in the console only the the ones currently in view can be toggled,if it's outside this window you have to manually go to the other screen and horizontally scroll to find the track your working on.This is very frustrating compounded by the fixed colour scheme which makes identifing the chosen track difficult.

You can double click on any track in the arrangement to both select and jump to the corresponding channel in the mixer, no matter what is currently being viewed in the mixer. You can change any track/channel/event color to your liking.
gezzyboy wrote:This could be easily rectifified with a bolder scheme and vertically stackable mixer channels,I need to see as much of the mixer as possible otherwise it's like painting your hallway through the letterbox! (excuse the analogy)

You might try using Banks in the Console to speed things up a bit. In all of my high track count Songs I setup Banks, based on logical groupings (Drums, Synths, Strings, Brass, etc, etc). This is often in relation to how I bus things, which is inline with my mixing workflow.
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bedstrom
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AudioCave wrote:
VG wrote:
AudioCave wrote:All I can say to you is to read the manual

Finally - you indirectly admitted that S1 is not that intuitive... That's what i am talking about.


Uh... what I said was if it's not intuitive to you the only thing really left is to read the manual - and of course ask for help. Not sure why you seem to need an admission or affirmation of your own feelings. If you feel it's unintuitive that's all that should matter to you. Please don't twist my words. I agreed that the info space needs more info and that some people may not find it intuitive. That really applies to any DAW, it's a big planet we live on.

I didn't find it that way when I first used it but you aren't me and I don't think you want to be.

I respect your feelings about that. It's ok. There are lots of things I think could be better with S1 so you're not alone.



Just a couple of comments on this. Software is rarely truly intuitive. What feels like intuitive is if it works the way you have learned from other software. S1 does a better job than any other DAW as far as following UI conventions of Windows and Mac.

Beyond the concept of intuitiveness is the discoverability. S1 does a pretty good job of this by offering tooltips on all controls, an Info View and lots of right click functionality.

But when i comes to the architectural structure and signal flow, you really do have to either read the manual or set up some experiments to see how things work.

I have thoroughly read the manual and I was have to say that is nicely written and I picked up lots of the subtleties that I would not have discovered without reading it.

The users have also created a lot of great videos where you can pick up techniques and workflow by watching how other people use it.

I currently use S1 as my main recording system not because it does everything, but because it does the fundamentals well, is easy to figure out, and fun to use. Another huge factor is a friendly and helpful user group here in the forum.
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VG
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AudioCave wrote:
VG wrote:
AudioCave wrote:All I can say to you is to read the manual

Finally - you indirectly admitted that S1 is not that intuitive... That's what i am talking about.


Uh... what I said was if it's not intuitive to you the only thing really left is to read the manual - and of course ask for help.


You, probably, think that I was not able to figure out on my own how to make S1-things work. I'll disappoint you - I figured out it without reading the manual. That's why I am saying - the way it is organized is not acceptable.

True - for some people a mess is logical because they remember where an object is within a mess; for the rest of people, this is just a mess. However, even a pig loves when everything is in order.

Yes, S1 has great features, but the way they were organized it is a mess = this is good only for specific users.

If S1 believes this is the right way to do it - that's their choice - they have rights to do whatever they want, but remember - the user also has a choice - he can choose any DAW he needs.

I suggest S1 to hire a new project manager who uses logic, common sense... as the primary tool.


Why is the current one is not good enough? An example with REAPER:

They also claim that REAPER is the best easy-to-use intuitive DAW on the market. Let's check:

What do you think this REAPER's option means - "Edit - Apply FX on item as new take?" If you did not read the manual - you'll never guess. One REAPER's engineer says this is a freeze option, another - this is not a true freeze option... As you understand, this is not the only place of great "intuitiveness" and "easy-to-use" in REAPER. However, in any case they believe that it proves that REAPER is the best DAW on the market. For outsiders it sounds crazy and therefore I spent time to understand what's the real reason and found - the boss (no names) believes in ITS', to say politely, uniqueness, greatness, impeccability ... and therefore what is done in REAPER, IT believes is the best.

Can a paranoiac run the company? Not only the company, but the country as well - e.g. Stalin. Is it good for the people? Judge yourself.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 15/10/2010 03:23:50

bedstrom
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VG wrote:
You, probably, think that I was not able to figure out on my own how to make S1-things work. I'll disappoint you - I figured out it without reading the manual. That's why I am saying - the way it is organized is not acceptable.


It seems to me that you have completed your evaluation of S1 and it does not meet your acceptance criteria. Which DAW do you plan to try next?
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AudioCave
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VG wrote:I suggest S1 to hire a new project manager who uses logic, common sense... as the primary tool.

Why is the current one is not good enough? An example with REAPER:

They also claim that REAPER is the best easy-to-use intuitive DAW on the market. Let's check:


Oh why bother... you guys have way more patience than me. I knew who this was, and what was coming, from post #1 having seen it play by play somewhere else a few days ago... so I'll bow out of this one.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 15/10/2010 04:13:24

themuzic
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It's nice to see some of the more respected S1 power users post in this thread. These guys hold more savvy and knowledge than I could ever display.

That said, I have an idea, what I can do is provide a video on all the functions that the OP and some of his supporters say don't work right. I have read so many misconceptions in this thread that (meaning thing they say that aren't there, in fact, are there).

So allow me to make a request of VG and THATY to provide me a comprehensive list of the functions they feel either don't work or are not there and I will provide a video either debunking or confirming these features.

I think much of this may be just a lack of effort in understanding but I'm prepared to either eat a little crow or enjoy a nice turkey dinner....lol.

So new guys, the ball is in your court. Feel free to PM me or post here but pull them together in a single post so I don't miss anything.

And to Motoko's comment on the new forum members, I totally agree. I haven't seen this many negative posts since the Steinberg forums went to hell. And this is why I'm willing to do this because I will do what ever I can to keep this forum helpful, positive (if possible), responsive and, above all else, friendly.

I will not allow myself to sit back and see this this forum to go the path of all the other forums I canceled my membership to!

So please new guys, help me do this.


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VG
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bedstrom wrote:
VG wrote:
You, probably, think that I was not able to figure out on my own how to make S1-things work. I'll disappoint you - I figured out it without reading the manual. That's why I am saying - the way it is organized is not acceptable.


It seems to me that you have completed your evaluation of S1 and it does not meet your acceptance criteria. Which DAW do you plan to try next?

You did not pay attention to the topic - I already wrote - in my opinion, the closest one to the meaning 'easy-to-use" is Samplitude 11 Pro. If Samplitude will keep their promises and in the version 12 will fix/automate the last inconveniences and will make it Mac OS 10.6 compatible - I definitely will switch to Samplitude 12 Pro.

However, if before the next release, any company will make a truly LOGICAL (intuitive) easy-to-use DAW - I will buy and stay with it. Ironically, it could be Logic Pro.

I'll repeat it again - in my opinion, the word 'intuitive' should have one meaning - 'logical.' Regarding the topic - the word 'logical' means the sequence, which allows to complete the task the fastest way available without reading the manual.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 15/10/2010 04:18:29

 
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