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Greatly Disappointed ! :(
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lowdbrent
Presonic
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Joined: 13/11/2010 22:17:51
Messages: 396
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I don't sub mix much. Heck, the largest group of channels I am going to have is drums. My drums never change. The vocals change. It's such a small channel count, there is no real need for me to sub group. I do agree that mixing with sub groups is puzzling.
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salvadoredelle
Presonic
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Joined: 01/04/2011 17:49:43
Messages: 788
Location: Northern California
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no he's right it is lower for the sub groups and as he said to be able to not only have the 4 subgroups summing to the main but all the channels into the sub groups... 4 Is just barely enough for me.. i wish i had 8 stereo subgroups.. I set em up:
1 Drums
2 Band (instruments)
3 vocals
3 soloist Vocals and instruments.

I keep a nice even mix in the band and use the subs to balance them and the channels to make a mix into them. I keep the vocals and soloist on separate subs so i can pop em out when I need to. But it's easy to load up the sub groups so on these boards you ride em lower and give some head room into the subs groups and the I like to use very light compression or limiter on them and I can get more overall gain at the sub group outputs.
Ya know what really helps with thes boards and any board for that matter , is a good quality drive rack. I like my old analog Meyer LD1 line driver and CP10 EQ combo on the outputs. This gives me complete control on what speakers are getting what level and it's all balanced. The LD1 aklows me to compensate for the lower sub group outputs if I am going Direct out with them or the AUX sends... I have filters and level controls on each of th I/O on the line drivers so i can roll off for the monitors and Lo pass on the subs and balance it all front panel no little tineyweeny LCD on my knees in the dark... You can get a DBX PA+ they work pretty damn good. I like the Symetrix Jupiter 8/PC system too it's easier to use on screen and has 8x8 I/O for mains subs and monitors and more it can alsl work as a stand alone 8x8 mixer as the inputs are assignable to line or mic level inputs.
But what I am getting at is you would use a Line driver or speaker management device on any board in a PA situation. So get one on your system and it compensates for the speaker types size and how they are connected and then compensates for level differences from the Boards various outputs and the compensates for the Room Acoustics and how you placed it. Getting the main room and performance space totally dialed in allows the band to hear better and play better and you mix at a lower volume and have more dynamic range for when you do have to step on it.

anyways... sub groups are real good MIX tool. I wish there were more in the 32.4.2.. should be a 32.8.2 or better yet have a configurable output cards for doing mono/stereo/quad/Surround. this is another place subgroups come in handy..

sub groups are your friends..!
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Kg_lee
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Joined: 18/08/2013 14:17:51
Messages: 30
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Thanks for all the great tips!

I actually got a grip on this thing. Once I got a few recordings in capture I was able work on somethings. I'm getting better volume out of my speakers but still clipping with the kick drum. I did compare my kick with my Allen & Heath and the analog is still has more power behind it. I was able to get hold of the clipping by reducing some hotter low frequencies on the main EQ and able to increase volume quite a bit. I have gotten many compliments on my sounds and I always end up running into other sound engineers and have been told I'm on the right track using this board.

I honestly think I just need a larger system for my tastes. I run my QSC HPR system at it's hardest without clipping. I just figure if I just had more power I wouldn't have to worry to much if I'm clipping. My plans are for bigger system at the beginning of the year.

I can honestly say I am liking the the board and not regretting the purchase now.
bmdenton23
Prenoob

Joined: 28/07/2010 16:13:50
Messages: 79
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I have to admit, I've never understood using subgroups for volume control. I can't think of many scenarios that I've run into when I actually want to turn a group of channels up at the same time. I understand submixing drums, but when do I ever (mid-show) decide I want to turn up the entire drum set? When would I want to turn up all the vocalists? All the Guitars? In my experience, I'm only wanting to turn up 1 channel at a time......and so I turn up that 1 channel.

Now submixing is great for compressing a group of channels for vibe, but I never use it for volume control.

Just throwing that out there to show that ppl have different mixing styles, and having 8 subgroups would be way overkill for some of us.
salvadoredelle
Presonic
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Joined: 01/04/2011 17:49:43
Messages: 788
Location: Northern California
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Depends on what you are mixing for what and how. if you have playback tracks and SFX I use the subs groups for them...
for basic band stuff i just break em up in 2 stereo groups on these smaller consoles... I use one group for instruments and one for vocals and they ride static at -U- most the night... they instruments tend to get louder over all as the night goes on... I'll back the band off in the mix a tad just to keep the vocals on top... you are still mixing on the main faders just balancing on the subgroups... Maybe lightly compress em as a group too! Depends! on some gigs I gotta use subgroups as feeds to other rooms or Side fills... I want faders at hand for that stuff not aux sends on knobs...
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Open Labs Nikko XXL Windows XP Based master workstation / Presonus Firstudio Tube / Presonus Studio Live 24.4.2 (2) / Studio Live 1602 (1) / StudioLive 16.4.2 (1) w/ Mac mini and ipad / Capture / Protools / Ableton / Reaper / OMS / Studio One artists & pro / Midas Venue live mixers (3) / Sound Craft 24x8x2 analog live mixer / AVID SC48 Digital console with digital snake/ Various Meyer Sound systems Ultra Series Speakers / Protools Control 24 controller/mixer with Mac tower running protools. Tannoy SRM12B Studio Monitors (old school and still sound great!) Meyer HD1 studio Monitors.
Yamaha C7 Grand Piano w/ professional MIDI (NOT a disklavier player piano but a real MIDI interface on a real C7!)
tons of outboard gear and synths, Kurzweil RM-250/PC88/ EmU E4 EX Turbo,
Spector NS2 Bass, ART Tube preAmp, Old Kay upright bass, G&L Strat /Taylor Acoustic Guitars, Mackie / QSC / JBL 4628B cabaret (Old School) / and Meyer ULTRA SERIES UPA/UPJ/UP-JUNIOR/UPM/UMS/MM4/MTS4 Speakers are the best you can get!
LRS
Presonic
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Joined: 28/07/2010 23:37:00
Messages: 199
Location: Taupo, New Zealand
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I never mix via sub groups with the individual channels also going direct to the mains. I tried once to set up a drum kit this way with a thought towards parallel compression however I found there was additional latency putting the signal into the sub groups. It was enough to cause some cancellation and the drums ended up with no punch. On my new board (name withheld) I actually run them into two stereo subgroups so the latency is the same. The individual channels don't go to the main mix directly.
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DJIceman97
Presonic

Joined: 16/03/2012 18:03:04
Messages: 160
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I use an SL24 with a QSC KW system (2-4 KW153's over 4 KW181's) and typically use aux subs. I run my KW153's at unity, and the KW181's at unity on the board with the gain set about 3:00 on the back, and have had great results. I'm planning on sitting down this week and working with it a bit and structure everything so the speakers limit near their peak, so I know where I sit as far as headroom on the board, just to give it a try.
gadget69
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Joined: 21/09/2010 03:56:19
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Location: Northern Mn
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Powered speaker limiters are a difficult thing to pin down... because you don't know when they start to come on... just when they are in hard limit, and to me that isn't information isn't of much use...I know... the light just barely lights and that is your key, but meter ballistics are such that the onset is NOT even close to that ... it has long since come and gone...

So, don't depend on that as a safety measure for powered speakers, unless you have bulletproof warranties with your speakers.
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mwright137
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Joined: 28/10/2011 17:57:00
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Kg_lee wrote:Thanks for all the great tips!

I actually got a grip on this thing. Once I got a few recordings in capture I was able work on somethings. I'm getting better volume out of my speakers but still clipping with the kick drum. I did compare my kick with my Allen & Heath and the analog is still has more power behind it. I was able to get hold of the clipping by reducing some hotter low frequencies on the main EQ and able to increase volume quite a bit. I have gotten many compliments on my sounds and I always end up running into other sound engineers and have been told I'm on the right track using this board.

I honestly think I just need a larger system for my tastes. I run my QSC HPR system at it's hardest without clipping. I just figure if I just had more power I wouldn't have to worry to much if I'm clipping. My plans are for bigger system at the beginning of the year.

I can honestly say I am liking the the board and not regretting the purchase now.


You may want to re-title your thread if you are no longer "Greatly Disappointed". At least add "...but not anymore" to the end of it...lol
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glynhughes
Prenoob

Joined: 29/12/2013 21:37:22
Messages: 39
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I was interested to find this thread…apologies for dredging it back up!

I have a 16.0.2 so no Sub-Groups but it does seem to suffer from a much lower output than the Soundcraft EFX8 and Allen & Heath ZED60-10FX analogue mixers I used before.

I use the same pair of QSC K8 and with both analogue desks I had the gains on the K8's turned midway to 12 o'clock and had plenty of volume…well below unity in fact and at the first outside got the talent asked if he was too loud after the first song!

I have always used the same decent quality Klotz 10m microphone cables to drive the K8's across all three desks.

Since I got the 16.0.2 I struggle to get anywhere near the same level even though I now have the gains on the K8's maxed out and the pot on the rear of the StudioLive turned all the way up.

I am having to push faders & main outputs above unity to get somewhere near and have even committed the cardinal sin of tweaking the input trims up a bit in a vain attempt to get more level.

I only use two tracks, one for vocal (SM58 Beta) and the other for an electro-acoustic guitar straight into the jack although I should have a DI box arriving today.

I use minimal compression having taken one of the male vocal presets and then taking some dynamics out of the mix and playing with the EQ

I am really struggling here and the two analogue desks mentioned above as reference I no longer have access to.

Reading about the -10dB in the Sub-Groups is even more worrying as although I don't have them on the 16.0.2 I am debating whether to exchange it for the 16.4.2 AI

Love the features, not so keen on the bigger footprint but very concerned I might have the same perceived lack of output level compounded by the Sub-Group levels being 10dB down on top of it all?

Has anyone compared the output of the 16.0.2 vs the AI mixer?

Any other hints, tips, gotchas etc. trying to achieve a decent output on the 16.0.2 would be gratefully received!

I did start another thread which has had some good input but I need to make my mind up on whether I jump for the AI, keep the 16.0..2 or look at an alternative desk altogether which I don't want to do as I like the layout of the PreSonus gear.

Thanks & kind regards,
-=Glyn=-
idle77
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Joined: 14/02/2014 13:21:35
Messages: 11
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Just want to say that gain structure is important and that gains on amplifiers are relative and not directly related to output. Turning the amp "all the way up" is not the only way to get 100%. For example, with a strong enough signal It is possible to get 100% output with the gain only halfway up.
sjc193
Presonic
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Joined: 30/03/2012 20:51:58
Messages: 568
Location: Warren, PA
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First off, Glyn, I have the 16.4.2 and it's great, if you like your 16.0.2 then you will like the 16.4.2 even more because it just has so many added features, but I'm sure they basically have the same "sound", unless you get the AI, they redid the AI boards to use the same processing as StudioOne so they should sound like S1.

Second, I honestly think that some of these types of comments in this thread and others about the board not being as loud as their old board is more about perceived loudness. It is quite possible that the board is just as loud as the others, but it doesn't SEEM like it, this is why I love this board so much! It comes down to clarity, these boards are clear (as long as you don't clip inputs or overdrive subs) and the analog boards can introduce a certain amount of distortion, sometimes by design, and to our ears it can be pleasant and it can also make the sound seem louder than the SPL really is.

For me, and I've been saying this for years, my goal is to make a band as loud as possible, without it SEEMING like it is all that loud at all. The key for this is balance and clarity. The SMAART wizard (Glyn this is really why you want the 16.4.2) is also key showing where to pull down any peaking frequencies and flattening out your canvas for which you can paint your masterpiece of sound.

It makes me smile when I have the system running at 115db SPL or more and I see someone walk right directly across the front of one of the main stacks and they don't even duck their head or anything, they're not even bothered by it, sometimes they'll just stand there checking out the band for a few minutes and I just shake my head because I know darn well through my experience that that speaker is freakin LOUD (where's the headbanging dude smiley when you need it)

Steve
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Kg_lee
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Joined: 18/08/2013 14:17:51
Messages: 30
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It's been a few weeks since I've checked anything on here. I still notice a difference in volume between the SL and Analog board and I've spent thousands trying to accommodate this difference. I was using QSC HPR series speakers which didn't like the input from the SL. Gain structuring did not fix fix the clipping of the amplifiers and they were hardly putting out any volume. I then purchased a pair of the QSC KW series and the inputs on these amps were friendly to the SL with absolutely no clipping issues and I got my low end back.

I have set my system up with both analog and SL and did the comparison and the analog still hits harder. My next venture is a back up digital board but I'm going to try a different brand and do comparisons with the SL. I love my SL as far as set up time and tearing down but the the computer thing is getting old. I just started using the remote APP and it works good but I thought it would do more. When ringing out montiors I thought I'd be able to see what I see on my computer and it just doesn't happen to work like that.

In all I would still recommend this board to anyone. I'm just constantly seeking simplicity.

Dale Christenson
Presonic
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Joined: 29/07/2010 01:12:24
Messages: 443
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IMHO, if your speaker is clipping, then it is getting enough signal to overdrive the input and/or output. It is not the mixer that is at fault for that. In other words, the mixer is giving enough voltage to drive the speaker to overload, so it's not the reason why it's not loud enough. There's something else amiss.
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