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blocks, clips, session, matrix or some form of pattern based sequencing
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jonathan
Presonoid
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We're listening...keep this discussion going. In particular, where do other solutions fall short?
Jonathan, Product Manager, PreSonus
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saintjoe
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Joined: 29/07/2010 00:11:27
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heck yeah!
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saintjoe
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jonathan wrote:We're listening...keep this discussion going. In particular, where do other solutions fall short?


what do you mean by other solutions? As in other daws or the other solutions in S1

for me, personally, I just really love the s1 environment, it's just a very clean workflow, so I'd like to make it my ONLY daw for production/recording.

I'm not a fan of flstudio, and the only reason I still use Live is because I like how the session view works.

If Live didn't have the session view, there'd be no incentive for me to use it personally.

I come from a hardware (mpc, emu command stations, etc) background, so I am used to building things in blocks/patterns as opposed to linear.


S1 is already the superstar in my eyes, native 64 bit support, a very clean interface, sounds wonderful, I can truly do everything from creation to completed album in it.

With a few tweaks on the compositional side, it will be the only daw I need, period.

I definitely have tons of ideas and ways this could work, I think I have your email too, I may send you some ideas, don't want to put everything out in the forum for competition to come swoop it up!
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Intergroove
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I like your ideas saintjoe
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saintjoe
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thanks, I have many more
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Intergroove
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Cool let's make S1 the best daw ever. Keep them coming bro.
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sdrr00
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jonathan wrote:We're listening...keep this discussion going. In particular, where do other solutions fall short?


awesome! from what ive seen, other pattern based solutions are very static.. what id like to see is to be able make variations within the patterns (sort of like offline processing for step-sequencing, if that makes sense), a "hybrid" pattern based solution, where while you know your working on a pattern, you still near-limitless control of whats going on within that particular pattern and its variations. ableton live's Session View is a great starting point for this type of solution.

also, are you guys planning any live-oriented features for S1?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 31/07/2010 02:11:39

bigcohoona
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Although I am much more familiar with Ableton's take on cell based creativity, I personally like how Cakewalk implemented this in Sonar with their "Matrix" tool.

I like the idea of the time still being linear from left to right instead of top to bottom like in Live, but looove how comprehensive Ableton's clips can be.

I think it would be amazing if Presonus came out with a "Sketchpad" idea which was a cell based building block tool which still flowed Left to right, but allowed you to drag both midi and audio files into each track/cell and set the length of that cell along with cell/clip automation of that cell.

From that point it would be awesome to either use just the "Sketchpad" in a live gig setting with "Gig Files" containing several "Song Files" or have a "Transfer to S1" feature allowing all your cells on the "Sketchpad" to instantly be moved into the normal S1 DAW linear track view (while of course maintaining all the clips automation, effets, etc).

Along with the cell based function in the "Sketchpad" what would be amazing is to have the same "Blocks" funtion as Reason 5/ Cubase, to set up an enhanced song organization function to quickly move major chunks/sections of each song. This could be your vertical aspect of the "Sketchpad" which would allow you to quickly swap all the "clips" within each "block" around. I would also want each clip to be capable of being assigned to a particular "block" in case a transition wav/clip which overlapped blocks needed to be grouped to a particular "Block"..

So there is my dream setup. A matrix/cell based "Sketchpad" which you could use on it's own for gigs, or open it up within S1 to sketch out a song and then quickly move it to the full blown linear/traditional DAW setup. Easy and streamlined movement between stage and studio....in fact Presonus could call it S-N-S (Stage and Studio)...never mind that is fairly lame.

Can you imagine how such a feature/embedded program within S1 would look and work as an iPad App!? That would be amazing, an iPad, Firepod, and an audience...all you need

big~C
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db
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My take on such a feature would be...

1. The power of cell and clip editing in Live but without the dual view requirement you have in Live.

2. One could also click inside a cell in S1 and the file (MIDI or Audio) in that cell could be made visible in the S1 editor.

3. Recording the output of one track to another in real time would be a minimum requirement for this kind of feature. The cell contents must be allowed to appear in the arranger in real time capturing all the tweaks and any improvisations made while playback is running.
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saintjoe
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keep it coming folks, they said they are watching this one
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sdrr00
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bigcohoona wrote:Although I am much more familiar with Ableton's take on cell based creativity, I personally like how Cakewalk implemented this in Sonar with their "Matrix" tool.

I like the idea of the time still being linear from left to right instead of top to bottom like in Live, but looove how comprehensive Ableton's clips can be.

I think it would be amazing if Presonus came out with a "Sketchpad" idea which was a cell based building block tool which still flowed Left to right, but allowed you to drag both midi and audio files into each track/cell and set the length of that cell along with cell/clip automation of that cell.

From that point it would be awesome to either use just the "Sketchpad" in a live gig setting with "Gig Files" containing several "Song Files" or have a "Transfer to S1" feature allowing all your cells on the "Sketchpad" to instantly be moved into the normal S1 DAW linear track view (while of course maintaining all the clips automation, effets, etc).

Along with the cell based function in the "Sketchpad" what would be amazing is to have the same "Blocks" funtion as Reason 5/ Cubase, to set up an enhanced song organization function to quickly move major chunks/sections of each song. This could be your vertical aspect of the "Sketchpad" which would allow you to quickly swap all the "clips" within each "block" around. I would also want each clip to be capable of being assigned to a particular "block" in case a transition wav/clip which overlapped blocks needed to be grouped to a particular "Block"..

So there is my dream setup. A matrix/cell based "Sketchpad" which you could use on it's own for gigs, or open it up within S1 to sketch out a song and then quickly move it to the full blown linear/traditional DAW setup. Easy and streamlined movement between stage and studio....in fact Presonus could call it S-N-S (Stage and Studio)...never mind that is fairly lame.

Can you imagine how such a feature/embedded program within S1 would look and work as an iPad App!? That would be amazing, an iPad, Firepod, and an audience...all you need

big~C


, a much more elaborate description of what i had in mind. i didnt play with Sonar's Matrix, but ive been hear good things baout it on the forum. I also agree with having it be left to right as opposed to Abletons up/down view
MarkyGoldstein
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Joined: 01/08/2010 12:43:32
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Hi,

I think you really need to look into
- Reason (Pattern Lanes, Blocks coming)
- Ableton Live (Live triggering, you can even trigger Scenes in realtime, or next bar)
- Sonar
- How people work the Akai MPC, Native Instruments Machine, etc. This did define Hip Hop, one of the best selling musical genres.

I have had such Feature Requests already since a long time, and I have collected:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AlqMYGaf_tuadE1zNUZ6OU05RzNmUXFfa3E0THBCRlE&hl=en&output=html

Patterns, Clips, Blocks, etc. is on top of my list, next to some other basics.

I also observe that I often spend too much time building a section, instead of building a song with multiple sections. Therefore I would also like to see some blocks and song skeletons like a1b1a2b2c1a3b3b3 that help building songs much faster, for example by defining the blocks first, and distributing the verse 1 to verse 2 automatically when verse 1 is being filled, and then applying variations from there (see also into Reason and how you build songs from patterns, and how you build and distribute pattern variations from copy & paste & edit...).

Cheers & peace.
My system: Mac Pro 2012v with the latest OS-X and the latest Studio One DAW and the latest plugins. It's always up2date, to every component. I use Internet studio management software (PluginUpdate, Mac OS X App Store, Update Checkers, KVR, etc.). It's the bleeding latest with every bug fix available applied.
nickaa
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Joined: 28/03/2010 00:37:25
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What in my humble opinion would be very nice, that one could switch constantly from pattern based to timeline based arrangement, whenever one method fits better to work with at a time. What i`d find limited would be, that, whenever you switch to one of these two modes, both wouldn´t go perfectly hand in hand. What i`m trying to say is, that, if i`m in pattern mode, creating something, in the background that stuff is as well being created in the timeline mode, and vice versa. If this would be developed in a straight and easy way, i´d love to see a pattern mode. But i have to say, although i have live, i never got around to use the session view, it´s imo not well thought out for studio work. It´s great to sketch something, but from then on i always felt bugged. I never got to use the way it is implemented in cubase (this arranger-thingie), but i rather would love to see something along these lines, as far as i understood it. On top of that a powerful step sequencer/pattern mode.
However, before something like this is implemented, i´d rather

- think tripple on how to implement it to support fast and easy workflow as well as supporting studio approaches (not only dj views)
- love to see stuff first that imo is way more important (i.e. folders, one track soltion for external instruments, audio warp markers, etc)

But in general a pattern mode would be nice for sure.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 01/08/2010 20:49:36

Kind regards,
nick
MarkyGoldstein
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I think if we are talking about patterns, we should first study Propellerheads Reason. It has very good pattern thinking, also in a linear sequencing way (it has Pattern lanes, where you paint patterns).

If we are talking live triggering, we are thinking about Ableton Live. In Live you can trigger almost anything live: audio clips, midi clips, scenes, etc. It's almost like an advanced MPC style of working. You can trigger next beat, immediate, etc. Also very interesting in Live is how the elastic audio is done: it's a sample player that slices the clip into smaller parts that then get stretched. In Live you can trigger Scenes immedate, and you can realtime modulate with a controller the song speed (and that is because the clip playback is like a rex realtime sampler thing) ! And you can record your matrix work into the timeline arrangment. I must say that myself I better understand the Scenes in Live, than the arrangement view (I think the arrangement view and the mixer are maybe the weak parts of Live).

I think that Ableton Live will be a great studio DAW in a few years. They are definitely getting better there and many SAE engineers start to use Ableton Live.

Blocks are coming with Reason 5, although from the video I saw I think this can be improved. I think we should be able to lay down blocks a, b, c, d, e, etc. and repeat those blocks, and then fill the blocks and the fillings of the blocks should automatically be distributed (or that should be the basic behaviour, with a mode to turn this off). Reason 5 seems to have quite a good thinking of pattern and linear music mix. I think this is killer, but maybe can be improved to. I would especially like to see "fast song buildup", and ways how to avoid getting into boring music by providing special thinking about variations and changes in the arrangmenet (so you can fast build verse 1 and verse 2, but also very fast build variations being it small variations or bigger differences between verse 1 and verse2. Changing something in version 1 should automatically distribute to verse 2 without an extra command, except if this is blocked because verse 2 carries a variation of this part. Maybe you get the idea

The way Cubendo is using non-linear things is completely wrong, I think. It's a weak first thought implementation not really making pattern heads happy especially because you distribute your pattern at command, and changing those patterns, you have to overwrite the existing, etc. It's not really usable I think, especially because the linear midi project is still somehow the master and all you do is fill it up with the patterns, but there is not a real relationship between the pattern and the midi tracks. It's a joke compared to Reason with its pattern lanes.



This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 01/08/2010 21:27:57

My system: Mac Pro 2012v with the latest OS-X and the latest Studio One DAW and the latest plugins. It's always up2date, to every component. I use Internet studio management software (PluginUpdate, Mac OS X App Store, Update Checkers, KVR, etc.). It's the bleeding latest with every bug fix available applied.
MarkyGoldstein
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Joined: 01/08/2010 12:43:32
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Hello,

I also wanted to report a short coming of Ableton Live that is quite fundamental.

Clip Playback Range
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=129393&hilit=layed+back

It's about music that is played ahead or late, etc. And this is about groove and Ableton Live has no solution for this yet. And this is the reason why many Ableton Live songs miss an emotional element. It's too much in rectangular clips and it can't play something that is really played ahead of time, but still needs to loop correctly...
My system: Mac Pro 2012v with the latest OS-X and the latest Studio One DAW and the latest plugins. It's always up2date, to every component. I use Internet studio management software (PluginUpdate, Mac OS X App Store, Update Checkers, KVR, etc.). It's the bleeding latest with every bug fix available applied.
 
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