image description


Spectrum Analyzer2
  Forum Index » Live Sound 
Author
Message
Jerryd
Presonic

Joined: 28/07/2010 16:01:24
Messages: 698
Offline

Here is a great discussion on measurement mics. This is coming from Harry Brill a Rational Acoustics instructor. Even a cheap mic will get the job done. Don't spend a lot of cash on something like this when your cash can go to other things that will make a bigger difference. Here is his take on cheap measurement mics:

http://www.dbxpro.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=1894

It is 2 pages and Harry comes in at the end. Read the whole thing.

Big Joe Daddy
Presonic
[Avatar]

Joined: 30/07/2010 01:24:03
Messages: 594
Location: Santa Ynez Valley, California
Offline

Live Sound Audio wrote:I'd try an iPhone app first. I use Faber but there are others.. May do what you need.

Hey Live Sound,
I checked out the Faber iPhone app. It's looks a bit heavy for a newbie like me. Is it simple enough for a beginner? Will it function well with the built in EQ on the StudioLive or would it require hooking up an external EQ? If so, which EQ would you recommend?

By the way, I've got the SL 16.4.2 along with my new QSC K Series 10's and my old Mackie 1501 subs. We still can't get over the awesome sound quality over what we had before with an old Mackie board and SRM 450's. The sound is soooo clear and articulate. Unbelievable. We haven't played out yet with our new gear but we're rehearsing with Roland TD-10 drums, Yamaha keys direct, bass guitar thru a Line 6 Bass Pod, and two guitars thru Line 6 X3 Live processors. So everything is 'ampless' for rehearsal. The sound quality is so good I just couldn't be happier. Now I'm stoked to learn all this gear and make it even better.
StudioLive 24.4.2 | StudioLive 16.4.2 | StudioLive 16.0.2 | QSC K Series 10's, 12's, Subs | Fractal Axe-FX II | Mac Pro - OS X 10.7.4, 2.66 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 2TB RAID, 16GB | MacBook Pro | iPad 64GB | Studio One v2.5 | an old watch, a lamp, and a box of crayons
kibo
Presonic
[Avatar]

Joined: 28/07/2010 23:08:13
Messages: 401
Location: Toronto, Canada
Offline

Big Joe Daddy wrote:
Live Sound Audio wrote:I'd try an iPhone app first. I use Faber but there are others.. May do what you need.

Hey Live Sound,
I checked out the Faber iPhone app. It's looks a bit heavy for a newbie like me. Is it simple enough for a beginner? Will it function well with the built in EQ on the StudioLive or would it require hooking up an external EQ? If so, which EQ would you recommend?

By the way, I've got the SL 16.4.2 along with my new QSC K Series 10's and my old Mackie 1501 subs. We still can't get over the awesome sound quality over what we had before with an old Mackie board and SRM 450's. The sound is soooo clear and articulate. Unbelievable. We haven't played out yet with our new gear but we're rehearsing with Roland TD-10 drums, Yamaha keys direct, bass guitar thru a Line 6 Bass Pod, and two guitars thru Line 6 X3 Live processors. So everything is 'ampless' for rehearsal. The sound quality is so good I just couldn't be happier. Now I'm stoked to learn all this gear and make it even better.


@BigJoe Daddy,

Me too, im very satisfied with my K12s. hope to have a Sub soon.... i totally can relate to you... id like to learn more and make my gear better too...
Studiolive 1642, Tube Pre, QSC K12s, Imac 21.5 8GB 3.06 Ghz, MacbookPro 13" i5, Blue Spark Condenser Mic
kibo
Presonic
[Avatar]

Joined: 28/07/2010 23:08:13
Messages: 401
Location: Toronto, Canada
Offline

@Jerry,

Hi there Dr. J! thanks for taking time to help me out on this area. i understood the things that you have expalined to me about the flat response.

I just learned that using just the regular 31 band outboard or from the SL will be difficult i suppose. I really need a parametric EQ for this.

i guess for now i will have to complete my gear for tuning so that i could just play around and learn. i forgot to tell you that i downloaded smaart trial already and its expired. now i went with Systune. i think its about the same right?

i would appreciate it a lot if you could help me with it. i will let you know once i get all the stuff.

thanks a lot,

kibo
Studiolive 1642, Tube Pre, QSC K12s, Imac 21.5 8GB 3.06 Ghz, MacbookPro 13" i5, Blue Spark Condenser Mic
Big Joe Daddy
Presonic
[Avatar]

Joined: 30/07/2010 01:24:03
Messages: 594
Location: Santa Ynez Valley, California
Offline

Hey Kibo,
I'll follow this thread to see how your efforts shake out. Please post when you get a little further along with your rig. Best to you.
StudioLive 24.4.2 | StudioLive 16.4.2 | StudioLive 16.0.2 | QSC K Series 10's, 12's, Subs | Fractal Axe-FX II | Mac Pro - OS X 10.7.4, 2.66 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 2TB RAID, 16GB | MacBook Pro | iPad 64GB | Studio One v2.5 | an old watch, a lamp, and a box of crayons
kibo
Presonic
[Avatar]

Joined: 28/07/2010 23:08:13
Messages: 401
Location: Toronto, Canada
Offline

@Bigdaddyjoe,

ok i will...
Studiolive 1642, Tube Pre, QSC K12s, Imac 21.5 8GB 3.06 Ghz, MacbookPro 13" i5, Blue Spark Condenser Mic
kibo
Presonic
[Avatar]

Joined: 28/07/2010 23:08:13
Messages: 401
Location: Toronto, Canada
Offline

@jerry,

i read the dbxpro.com thing. just curious if an iphone is enough for my application and in the long run... if im not mistaken it it said there that it is also an RTA and FFT thing. right? im just thinking coz i dont have an iphone... i could now buy one and justify it... hehehe. tell me what you think. so if ever i buy thte mic, RTA 420?

@Livesoundaudio,

does the iphone do the FFT thing? thanks.

kibo

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 30/07/2010 23:55:11

Studiolive 1642, Tube Pre, QSC K12s, Imac 21.5 8GB 3.06 Ghz, MacbookPro 13" i5, Blue Spark Condenser Mic
Monolithent
Supreme Baconator
[Avatar]
Joined: 28/07/2010 18:47:25
Messages: 13464
Location: Central New Jersey
Offline

Hey all,

Wanted to jump back in here real quick. I used to be LowTech.

Big Joe, If you're looking for low budget but still decent to start off with parametrics I bought and use a Samson D-3500. Not the best reputation in the world, I know, but mine is whisper quiet and works perfectly. Nice thing about it is that there are 15 notches per channel digital or a mono combination of 30. Leveled my system out nicely and the cost wasn't bad either. I have the entire spectrum within 2-3 dB and then I use my Driverack to shape it and align crossovers afterword.

And as far as a low budget mic. The DBX RTA mic that came with my Driverack works great and it's only like $50-75.

I tried using the EQs built into my SL16 without great result. It seemed to not play well. I'm still messing with it but just so I can use less gear.

See if you can find Smaart v.6. Rational Acoustics has released v.7 so the price has come down. I got lucky and got my copy for free from a rental company who changed software.

JerryD/Dr. J...I never really got the chance to thank you. My system sounds incredible even with really cheap gear.

Kibo and OP...I'm here nearly all the time so if you need some help setting up. I just got through all of this and its still pretty fresh in my head. And I can help you avoid some of the mistakes I made. Like trusting that all your cables were built properly according to standard.

If you can't afford a second audio interface there are ways you can setup an FFT system without it using just your built computer's onboard sound. Gave it a test just for fun and the results were remarkably close to using pro gear.
http://support.presonus.com

Tallest guy in the Mod Squad with all his hair still on his head.

No I'm not a freaking pilot!! The Air Force won't let me have a suit with a zipper...or sometimes shoestrings.

My advice and suggestions should never be considered advice or suggestions. These are mostly insane ramblings of a poor aircraft mechanic who can, strangely enough, still hear.

StudioLive 16.4.2, AudioBox 1818VSL, AudioBox 44VSL, Faderport, Digimax FS,, M-Audio Firewire 410
--MultiBoot System--
Win Vista 64/XP Pro/7 x86/7 x64 - Mac OSX Snow Leopard/Lion
Gigabyte motherboard--SYBA TI Firewire XIO2200A--i7 2600k Quad Core--16 GB DDR III--Custom 2U Rackmount--4 TB Raid (all internal SATA II)--19" Samsung HDMI LCD on pivoting VESA 1U Mount
Studio One v1 Pro x64
Studio One v1 Artist
Studio One v2 Artist
[Yahoo!]
kibo
Presonic
[Avatar]

Joined: 28/07/2010 23:08:13
Messages: 401
Location: Toronto, Canada
Offline

Monolithent,

so you guys are changing names! hehehe... anyway, thanks you so much for trying to help us with this.

im now with Systune. so i can use my PC just to play around the software for now? can you tell me how?

just let me know if its ok to do this on this forum or i will PM or call you...

should i buy Reference mics first? what do you think about the iphone thing?

thanks a lot,

kibo
Studiolive 1642, Tube Pre, QSC K12s, Imac 21.5 8GB 3.06 Ghz, MacbookPro 13" i5, Blue Spark Condenser Mic
cmebane
Prenoob

Joined: 29/07/2010 21:27:06
Messages: 21
Offline

The Behringer ECM mic is very flat and has been tested against much more expensive units. Google will turn up these tests. I have it and the mic which comes with the AudioControl RTA. They are very close and I feel confident with either. I don't fully agree that a 1/3 EG and an RTA are usless. I have many years of contradicting proof. However I have a FFT and plan to get SMAART when I get a laptop. This dog can learn new tricks and I will likely use all of these tools.

As for the parametric, I always had both on the FOH. The advantage of the graphic is it can make more adjustments than the parametric. Of course the parametric can in turn adjust areas outside of the 1/3 octave bands. Why not use both?

Although just getting back into a semi-regular live gig, I play with with stereos yearly. My main one is razor flat and sounds as good as anything I have ever heard (including Wilson Watt Puppies). My EQ is digital and I use the graphic for flattening and the parametric section to tame the worst of the low peaks. The results are stunning although it helps to start with good speakers.

And lastly, as stated in my original post, most folks find a flat system very thin so I used addition low end. YMMV
kibo
Presonic
[Avatar]

Joined: 28/07/2010 23:08:13
Messages: 401
Location: Toronto, Canada
Offline

cmebane,

thanks for your inputs. i will definitely buy a parametric EQ... im considering the behringer and rta-420 ref mic. we will see how it goes. i will let you guys know.

im really very new to all of these stuff but im willing to learn.

tnx,

kibo
Studiolive 1642, Tube Pre, QSC K12s, Imac 21.5 8GB 3.06 Ghz, MacbookPro 13" i5, Blue Spark Condenser Mic
Monolithent
Supreme Baconator
[Avatar]
Joined: 28/07/2010 18:47:25
Messages: 13464
Location: Central New Jersey
Offline

kibo wrote:Monolithent,

so you guys are changing names! hehehe... anyway, thanks you so much for trying to help us with this.

im now with Systune. so i can use my PC just to play around the software for now? can you tell me how?

just let me know if its ok to do this on this forum or i will PM or call you...

should i buy Reference mics first? what do you think about the iphone thing?

thanks a lot,

kibo


I haven't changed names, per se, just haven't had the chance to figure out how to import my old name into the new forums. I'll be back once I figure that part out.

As far as Systune goes I will have to do some reading on it but if it works like Smaart then it shouldn't be too difficult to set-up without a separate interface. My wife just had our baby this afternoon so it will be a little while til I can get into it but, I will hook you up if I can. I might try to use the wifi in the hospital to do some reading on it for the next couple nights.

Shoot me a PM and I can talk you through how to get set up for your first measurement. It's not tough but it takes a bit to get used to it. And there's a decent amount of prep work that has to be right before you take your first measurement.

I would recommend getting a low cost reference mic as your first purchase, definitely. If I can figure out how to get you set up without an inteface you could be up and running before you know it. I had it sort of working with just my StudioLive by itself and an external player (most likely due to the differences in Windows and ASIO compared to Core audio) but I still need to play with it a bit before I post how to do that.

As far as the iPhone app I have absolutely no knowledge. I've made it a point to not own anything that starts with a lower case "i". No disrespect to anyone else who has just a choice I made when the craze started.
http://support.presonus.com

Tallest guy in the Mod Squad with all his hair still on his head.

No I'm not a freaking pilot!! The Air Force won't let me have a suit with a zipper...or sometimes shoestrings.

My advice and suggestions should never be considered advice or suggestions. These are mostly insane ramblings of a poor aircraft mechanic who can, strangely enough, still hear.

StudioLive 16.4.2, AudioBox 1818VSL, AudioBox 44VSL, Faderport, Digimax FS,, M-Audio Firewire 410
--MultiBoot System--
Win Vista 64/XP Pro/7 x86/7 x64 - Mac OSX Snow Leopard/Lion
Gigabyte motherboard--SYBA TI Firewire XIO2200A--i7 2600k Quad Core--16 GB DDR III--Custom 2U Rackmount--4 TB Raid (all internal SATA II)--19" Samsung HDMI LCD on pivoting VESA 1U Mount
Studio One v1 Pro x64
Studio One v1 Artist
Studio One v2 Artist
[Yahoo!]
kibo
Presonic
[Avatar]

Joined: 28/07/2010 23:08:13
Messages: 401
Location: Toronto, Canada
Offline

lowtech,

congrats bro! no hurry, just take your time. would love to play around with it without buying the interface. let you know when i have the ref mic.

by the way, just a newbie question. what happens to the system when you tune it flat already and then you have problems with your microphones? i mean feedback. you cut on the eq on the individual channel of the problem mic or use your 31 eq or parametric after the mixer? i just really wonder how to do that!

also, what do you suggest for an 31 EQ outboard? is that 31 eq parametric? DBX drive rack PX?

thanks so much!

kibo

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 01/08/2010 03:11:09

Studiolive 1642, Tube Pre, QSC K12s, Imac 21.5 8GB 3.06 Ghz, MacbookPro 13" i5, Blue Spark Condenser Mic
cmebane
Prenoob

Joined: 29/07/2010 21:27:06
Messages: 21
Offline

Quite honestly, I NEVER had an issue with feedback when I was a full time FOH engineer. Mostly it will come from the monitors.
From my experience, it should not happen. With modern technology a squeal can be pinointed very quickly with an FFT. Parametrics used at notch filters should make feedback obsolete.
Monolithent
Supreme Baconator
[Avatar]
Joined: 28/07/2010 18:47:25
Messages: 13464
Location: Central New Jersey
Offline

Kibo. Thanks brother. He's a good lookin little guy and so far exceptionally mellow. I'll post a cool pic I took as soon as I can figure out how to post images from my computer with this upgraded forum.

On the subject, I fully agree with cmebane. Once you have the system flat and your monitors equalized, 99% of your feedback problems will disappear.

I still rent Graphic EQs for monitors though. I get bands that do their best to make my job impossible. Stage noise and trying to compete with it causes the bulk of your problems. I can't get a parametric adjusted in an emergency situation as fast as a graphic. I can tweak it back out later with the parametric if I need to. Most of the time its because the lead tries acting like an idiot and running all over the stage. As soon as he/she is back in front I can give that frequency back to whoever needs it.

Every mic has only so much gain before feedback, exceed it with monitor SPL while trying to make sure your lead can hear over the Marshall stack directly behind him and you're doomed. I always ring out when I can and the graphic is there just as an extra piece of insurance.

Watch the volume, teach the band to watch their volume, ring out, make sure things are in proper phase, consider the directivity of each mic, aim things where they need to be aimed only, and get the system leveled out and you should be just fine.
http://support.presonus.com

Tallest guy in the Mod Squad with all his hair still on his head.

No I'm not a freaking pilot!! The Air Force won't let me have a suit with a zipper...or sometimes shoestrings.

My advice and suggestions should never be considered advice or suggestions. These are mostly insane ramblings of a poor aircraft mechanic who can, strangely enough, still hear.

StudioLive 16.4.2, AudioBox 1818VSL, AudioBox 44VSL, Faderport, Digimax FS,, M-Audio Firewire 410
--MultiBoot System--
Win Vista 64/XP Pro/7 x86/7 x64 - Mac OSX Snow Leopard/Lion
Gigabyte motherboard--SYBA TI Firewire XIO2200A--i7 2600k Quad Core--16 GB DDR III--Custom 2U Rackmount--4 TB Raid (all internal SATA II)--19" Samsung HDMI LCD on pivoting VESA 1U Mount
Studio One v1 Pro x64
Studio One v1 Artist
Studio One v2 Artist
[Yahoo!]
 
Forum Index » Live Sound
Go to: