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Spectrum Analyzer2
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kibo
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Joined: 28/07/2010 23:08:13
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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@jerry,

thanks a lot again... im really trying to absorb all this inputs... its a great help. next thing is to apply them... i will try to learn more of the 260 before and hoe to go about it just like what i did with the SL. apreciate all the help your giving us...

@ gadget,

nice to see you here too. iver read a couple of threads at dbx site. be reading moreand i hope you could help us too with these stuff.

kibo
Studiolive 1642, Tube Pre, QSC K12s, Imac 21.5 8GB 3.06 Ghz, MacbookPro 13" i5, Blue Spark Condenser Mic
gadget69
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That's what were here for! (and there..) any and all questions welcome.
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hue
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Joined: 27/08/2010 07:54:06
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Lot's going on here. I love to see a heated argument. Makes me want to make popcorn. Anyway. Isn't use of an RTA/Spectrum Analyzer mainly dependent on the room? The room probably has more effect on what you hear than the monitors do. So, if we're talking live here, and you run a mobile gig, settings would change every time you set up. That's why it takes so long for the sound guy to even get to the sound check.

The very mention of bumslinger products makes me cringe. Though I have to reluctantly admit, I've own a couple of their items which were replaced for their uselessness rather quickly.
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Big Joe Daddy
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Joined: 30/07/2010 01:24:03
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Monolithent wrote:I will agree with the Doc on this one. K12s are very smooth out of the box ad really don't need much if any help. The processing would come into play to help set yourself to a room after you've done all you can with equipment, positioning, gain structure, etc.

The Xilica pieces are pretty expensive but I will say that I played with the XControl interface that goes with XP and XD series and it is without doubt the simplest software for this purpose I've ever seen. If I read it right, one would sparsely ever have to touch the face of the hardware. It makes setting up parametrics childsplay. If a person has eyes and can operate a mouse they'll figure it out after about 5 minutes of playing in offline mode. Absolutely brilliant implementation.

I've seen the panel layout on another brand before but I can't think of where. There may be other options for the Xilica pieces if that's the case. I wish my younger years hadn't been so much fun. It'd be nice to remember things.

Hey Mono,
I just dug into the Xilica web site and unless I missed something, I think the software is PC only, nothing for the Mac. If you think otherwise, please give a shout.
Thx
BJD
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Monolithent
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Yep, you're right Joe.

Not for Mac. Shame. Nice piece of software.

And Gadget...liking that avatar...maybe not as much as the beating himself to death on the computer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 22/09/2010 04:56:22

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No I'm not a freaking pilot!! The Air Force won't let me have a suit with a zipper...or sometimes shoestrings.

My advice and suggestions should never be considered advice or suggestions. These are mostly insane ramblings of a poor aircraft mechanic who can, strangely enough, still hear.

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kibo
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Joined: 28/07/2010 23:08:13
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hi mono,

just to clarify the line 6 UX1 has 1 XLR input and the other line input.. would that be ok for the Systune? or it has to be 2 XLR mic inputs? sorry had to ask...

tnx,

kibo
Studiolive 1642, Tube Pre, QSC K12s, Imac 21.5 8GB 3.06 Ghz, MacbookPro 13" i5, Blue Spark Condenser Mic
Jerryd
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Joined: 28/07/2010 16:01:24
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Kibo -- are you going with Sytune? I am afraid I don't know that program so I probably won't be able to help you there. I know Mono has played with it some so maybe he can help you. Is your Smaart Demo expired?
Jerryd
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hue wrote:Lot's going on here. I love to see a heated argument. Makes me want to make popcorn. Anyway. Isn't use of an RTA/Spectrum Analyzer mainly dependent on the room? The room probably has more effect on what you hear than the monitors do. So, if we're talking live here, and you run a mobile gig, settings would change every time you set up. That's why it takes so long for the sound guy to even get to the sound check.

The very mention of bumslinger products makes me cringe. Though I have to reluctantly admit, I've own a couple of their items which were replaced for their uselessness rather quickly.



I think we all have used them at one time or another. The shelf life on them isn't very long but you can get some use out of them.

Hue -- You asked if an RTA / Spectrum Analyzer's use mainly dependent on the room? Well, that is what marketing experts have tried to emphasize.

Before I go any further -- let's back up and clarify a couple of ways these are used.

There are stand alone RTA's out there that demonstrate on a screen what is happening in a room. REALLY? These are FIXED frequency & volume based devices that falsely tell you what is supposedly going on in a room. Just think about a graphic EQ. When you get into higher frequencies the gap between the Iso centers gets ALOT bigger. For example 8K then 10K -- what about the other 1,998 frequencies in between there? There is so much room for error here.

The reason you should NEVER trust an RTA inside a venue is because you have to know what the response of the system is OUTSIDE of the venue (FIRST) in the free field (NO reflections) OR if you have the luxury of owning a system that has been thoroughly tested in an anechoic chamber.

When you know what the response is outside of ALL walls and reflections can you begin to put some trust in an RTA based device. I really hope this is making sense. This is going back to what I have been saying for as long as I have been a member here on the forum. You can't take a graphic EQ and insert it into a system and say truthfully that when you boost 3K that you really did boost 3K. How do you know? 3K might be deficient by 6dB from the start! Or it could actually be boosted 6dB from the start. So it is essential to know what the TRUE starting position is of any system BEFORE taking room measurements.

That is why the AUTO EQ on an speaker management device (DriveRack included) is flawed with the assumption that all you have to do is press a button and "Viola".

Check out this article written by my friend Gadget "Gary" over at the DBX forum: http://www.dbxpro.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=2346

Everything I know about sound I learned from this guy. I do have to thank Dennis as well who is a SMAART expert for taking me under his wing and teaching me the ropes.

All of us for so long have been putting the cart before the horse with this stuff that it is time to step back and take a good look at what is really going on and move into learning mode. You don't have to have expensive gear -- you just need knowledge.

That is why things get heated around here because of lack of knowledge.

If you have your system set up for a flat frequency response several things fall into place:

1. The energy of the system is EQUAL. Individual frequencies are the same dB Level. There is no lack (dips) or hype going on. VERY IMPORTANT.

2. You know with certainty where your frequency response is at in relation to the audio spectrum. You can confidently know that a 3dB boost at 3k is accurate on your graphic or your mixer.

3. A flat response is like a system not having a response -- it will serve you best in highly reflective environment.

4. The system will sound seemless.

The other type of analyzers are Dual FFT based and all of the above still applies -- they just take into consideration the electrical signal of your system and compares it to your acoustical signal of your system AND what the room is doing to your system.

Way more detailed than a wimpy RTA.

As far as measuring in every venue? I have done it but to be honest -- the only thing that changed was the low end of the spectrum. It actually ramped up because of walls and standing waves (reflections) that if I corrected it -- I would have to change it right back when the place filled up with people.

I would actually like to measure a venue FULL of people and make changes accordingly BUT I have a feeling most won't like it.

If I could get by with a few minutes of pink noise and get the trace going I maybe able to use the band as program material after that. Hmm -- maybe I will try it.




kibo
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hi jerry,

my Smaart demo expired already.. i have systune... im just concerned if i buy the line 6 if it would work with duall FFT. one input is line guitar and the other is XLR mic input. i think should be the same needs as the Smaart? im just not sure if it needs both XLR inputs.

thnks a lot,

kibo
Studiolive 1642, Tube Pre, QSC K12s, Imac 21.5 8GB 3.06 Ghz, MacbookPro 13" i5, Blue Spark Condenser Mic
Jerryd
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Joined: 28/07/2010 16:01:24
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You certainly need two inputs but they don't have to be XLR. One can be a 1/4". Use 1/4" to XLR adapters with that.
Big Joe Daddy
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Joined: 30/07/2010 01:24:03
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Hey Gadget Man,
Like that avatar! Enjoy your posts too. Very informative for a rookie like me. Keep 'em coming.
BJD
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Jerryd
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Monolithent wrote:Yep, you're right Joe.

Not for Mac. Shame. Nice piece of software.

And Gadget...liking that avatar...maybe not as much as the beating himself to death on the computer.



Mono isn't that crazy? Gadget is a very cool dude & he has been patient with me for the last two years now BUT he doesn't like to regurgitate what he took the time to thoroughly explain in the READ ME FIRST section & the FAQ section. There is a wealth of information there for the taking. After constantly asking people to check out the RMF & FAQ sections -- he found his avatar.

Monolithent
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I've always enjoyed a good laugh at how creative an avatar can get. His is just one I will never be able to forget.

Also, I knew I'd seen that xilica piece before. Danley Sound labs has an identical piece. http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danleyamps.asp

I don't know if there is a price difference between the two but it is another well respected company.

@kibo

Hey brother did you try to call me the other night? I got a call from Saskatchewan and thought it might be you. If it was feel free to call back. I was having a night from hell and there was no way I could answer a phone. Justto give you an idea how bad. I rolled in to the venue with about 15,000 watts of power and rolled out with barely 4,000. If it could go wrong it did.
http://support.presonus.com

Tallest guy in the Mod Squad with all his hair still on his head.

No I'm not a freaking pilot!! The Air Force won't let me have a suit with a zipper...or sometimes shoestrings.

My advice and suggestions should never be considered advice or suggestions. These are mostly insane ramblings of a poor aircraft mechanic who can, strangely enough, still hear.

StudioLive 16.4.2, AudioBox 1818VSL, AudioBox 44VSL, Faderport, Digimax FS,, M-Audio Firewire 410
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kibo
Presonic
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Joined: 28/07/2010 23:08:13
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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hi mono,

i didnt call you brother but i will definitely soon. you guys might not see me often posting but im always checking the site everyday.
im not asking stuff from you guys yet coz i dont have my interface yet for systune, my dbx 260 and my PC broke still for repair and they told me a month. i lost everything in it...

i really need your help when i get my stuff together. still getting ways to convince my wife for me to buy more stuff. hahaha...

pls PM me your number... by the way im from toronto... if you get a 416 area code maybe thats me...

thanks a lot,

kibo
Studiolive 1642, Tube Pre, QSC K12s, Imac 21.5 8GB 3.06 Ghz, MacbookPro 13" i5, Blue Spark Condenser Mic
ltdpro
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Joined: 19/10/2010 03:17:55
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FLAT...NO WAY!!

Ok...here is my take after 35 years of live sound, installation work, and working with some of the finest Dolby guys out there in the real world. First an admission...I do not have GOLDEN ears, and I still don't use the word expert when defining my sound background.

Basically, I use the old time motion picturfe standard..the Mythical "X" Curve. But I make adjustments based on the room, the equipment, and the situation. 20 hz to 20 khz is the range I measure with "Pink Noise". I try to keep the sytem as measured reasonably FLAT from 40 hz to 2 khz (it used to be 1 khz), then I continue with a gradual slope downward from 2 khz out to 20 khz. The slope is about 3 db down per octave until finally you are about -10 db down at the high end at 20 khz. Smaller rooms such as a living room or control room may have the initial FLAT portion out to 5 khz instead of the current 2 khz (or the older 1 khz standard). If the CURVE is off 1 db or so when first measured...I leave it alone. Anything off by more than 2 db or more I will adjust to meet my curve.

You will be amazed at how little adjustment you have to make in the near field, because speakers are made so much better today. The far field...in other words the room, will have some requirments for EQ adjustments in most cases. But remember...the room will sound different in other parts of the room. Use your best judgement (ears??) to compromise when needed. ADD subs to taste...it is not unusual for the low end...below 40 hz to be adjsuted +6 db or 0 db for taste for motion picture theaters. YES...that much.

OK...so we don't work in theaters. But one of the best playbacks I ever heard (and how I ended up in this business) is a 3-way JBL motion picture, theater system playing back "Free Bird"...a live recording filmed years ago. Personally...I find many SMAART users tend to create HARSH / TINNY/ HISSY end-products by EQ-ing FLAT out to 20 khz. FLAT out to 20 khz is NOT a requirement. However, SMAART is great finding those awful situations that EQ can't fix. Monitoring an effectively EQ'd system is also great with SMAART. What is allegedly on the CD reference (or ??) is what is measured (the room?).

With stage work...I do this with stage moniotors first (40 hz to 2 khz FLAT, then a gradual slope out to 20 khz as defined earlier)...then I ring out using Pink Noise as a reference. Yes...I use "pink" to ring out. Of couse...this all gets me to the starting point before the band arrives. Then the fun part...keeping musicians happy, starts. Just my POV...I am not an expert.
 
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