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Forum Index » Profile for Jerryd » Messages posted by Jerryd
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Live Sound » Hey, Monolithent, How was your evening?......A Rant that I hope is a bit uplifting at the end » Go to message
I totally agree with you Jon. It is extremely hard for me to go out with my wife and just have a good time listening to some live music. I get frustrated to the point that I usually have to leave. When someone asks for help -- I always tell them that it is too late in the game for triage work. The bottom line is: That guy SUCKS and he doesn't know what he is doing and is actually doing it for other reasons than what you and I do it for. Great sound should be on PURPOSE & not by accident. There is a guy here in town that has a pretty decent sounding system BUT he doesn't know WHY. He thinks it is because he is good & when you talk to him about his system you quickly find out that he just followed simple manufacturer settings & using his ear -- got good results. He doesn't know what frequency response is or what it even looks like. Those things help immensely to visualize what a system should look like at least as a starting position. A person that knows the WHY can make almost any system sound better. There is a protocol out there and it isn't random.

I bet that guy just doesn't care & there is nothing you can do but tell him honestly that if he doesn't get his crap together he is actually going to hurt someone's ears because they don't know any better. Tell him you will help (If you want) but he is going to have to set aside all his beliefs about sound. He probably has NO IDEA that 95% of his system set up can be revamped at home in his driveway or back yard and not at the venue.

His system needs to be verified that everything is working the way it is supposed to. ALL cables and wiring thru the entire system have to be checked for proper polarity BEFORE you even fire the system up. My guess is he has never thought of that. If everything checks out there -- his crossover needs to be set according to the manufacturer, then gain structure to get all the gear talking the same language. From there LEVEL settings where we get all amps and speakers at the SAME LEVEL dB wise. Next alignment & at last: EQ.

If he doesn't want help or think he needs it -- tell him you will flat out never go to another event where he is running sound again.

Hang in there Jon
Live Sound » Spectrum Analyzer2 » Go to message
Monolithent wrote:

Dr J, MikeRivers, Other live sound geniuses!!! Help me out here. I don't deal too much in churches...afraid I'll catch fire.


I have never stepped forward and offered any help. The same reaction at church is often the same reaction on any forum where something is brought up that people just aren't familiar with. "WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT"?

If there isn't any acoustical treatment happening then the system has to be set up for a flat response. The reason? A flat response is THE LEAST reactive in a highly reflective environment. A flat response is like saying it doesn't have a response. No other frequency is more hyped than any of the others. They all are reigned in EQUAL. You have to have an FFT program to do that. Run the FFT program on your system in the FREE Field first (outdoors) to remove walls and reflections as much as possible. Take a snapshot of the Response and use the snapshot to compare it to and INDOOR snapshot so you can see what walls and reflective surfaces did to your system. Those areas of difference will be the areas of interest. You then have to either: acoustically treat the room OR move your speakers around to get the best position (usually off walls and onto people)

Kibo -- Let the church handle it if they aren't open. Seems like such a paradox........(Not open to thoughts or reason) But I DO know what you mean. Do go ahead and get your own system in order the best you can & get familiar with it all. When you have the results and the confidence -- someone is bound to spread the word that KIBO has a butt kickin system. Then Maybe they will start asking questions. Don't spend anymore time on their stuff. Let them see what you can do with yours.

I will check back later on here. Right now I got to bolt on out of the office.

Live Sound » Spectrum Analyzer2 » Go to message
Oh you don't have K Subs......... yeah get them before Driverack 260.
Live Sound » Spectrum Analyzer2 » Go to message
Kibo -- it looks like the speaker is rated at 300 watts program. The amp is 160 watts of power at 8 ohms per side. Do you know if the amp is bridged and if the tops are run in mono?

It gets confusing when one company uses "RMS" and another uses "Program Power". RMS is average power and Program power is most likely close to double the RMS value. So I guess those Yorkville's need at least 300 watts per top then. If you are only giving them 160 watts per side then it is under powered.

If they are bridged mono at 4 ohms -- you will get the most power to the tops. 800 watts to be exact @ 4 ohms. Each box would get 400 watts and that would be more than the program power. You could blow the speakers up if your gain structure isn't set right. But then again, underpowered is really bad too.

In stereo mode -- probably not enough power. In bridge mode -- a lot more power for sure.

If overall speech intelligibilty is the main concern -- go mono. If you have to stay in stereo for some reason then they really need a bigger amp.

What do they use for a crossover? Do they have any graphic EQ's on board somewhere?
StudioLive General Discussion » Gas Pipe -- You out there? » Go to message
LowTech -- you found it. Ok Thanks! I kept getting an error message.
StudioLive General Discussion » Gas Pipe -- You out there? » Go to message
Hey Gas Pipe -- Did you still have the link to the Latency Checker? On the old forum -- the link has been disabled. You probably have a new screen name as well since most of us couldn't carry it over. I kept getting a "Dr. J is already taken". No duh! Anyway -- if you are still out there -- can you hook me up with the link?

Thanks a bunch!

Jerry D.
Live Sound » Help me tune this amp to these speakers...Please! » Go to message
Guitar guy -- have you looked in your amp for presets that match your tops? I don't know those tops or if they are new enough to have a preset located inside the amp. Check on that because you may not have to do much else.

If your tops aren't in the amp presets -- then there will be some work involved for sure.
Live Sound » Spectrum Analyzer2 » Go to message
kibo wrote:hi jerry,

i only have SL1624 and 2 QSC K12s.

6 sm 58's
1 senheisser vocal(im at work acnt remember)
1 Sennheiser e 602 II for kick
2 Sennheiser e 604 for snare and toms
1 pair behringer C-2 condenser mics for overheads
3 behringer DI
1 presonus tube pre DI for bass

cabinets at church are yorkvilles. small amps cant remember the models. we use yorkville monitor speakers at church (8inch with horn,passive) with EV 100watts amps i think, that we use to use for FOH at church.

im really trying to hold my impulse to buy all the stuff that i want... please let me know wchich one would be important.

by the way our church holds maybe 400-450 people.

thanks,

kibo








Kibo -- Honestly your own personal set up should be in decent shape. You go straight out of your StudioLive into your K12's & KSubs. It doesn't get any simpler than that. You should already be at a great starting point. I would really have to hear it and maybe even throw SMAART on there to see what it looks like. I know there is a vocal boost switch on it somewhere. Does that help your sound? What is it about your set up that makes you wonder if it should be better or are you actually satisfied with it?

With any setup -- checking all cables for proper polarity is a must. A multi-tester would do the job for that. I don't think you have any speaker wire in your set up do you? I didn't see any monitors. So we are left with the SL which if you have the latest firmware you should be good & then the K12's will need to be checked.

I like LowTech's idea of borrowing one or renting one for the day. Shoot -- have your church purchase one because with that set up -- they are going to need it.

Now for the church set up -- Yorkville's are great speakers from what I hear. If the church doesn't have a speaker management device or something that controls the speakers besides a graphic EQ -- then it is an absolute must they get one. Preferably the DR 260. As far as the amps go: are you sure that the amp is only 100watts? How about 1000watts?

Here is the deal on speakers and amps. Whatever the speaker is rated -- let's say the top speaker is rated at 600 watts RMS @ 8 Ohms. The proper amp size for that box would be AT LEAST 1.5 - 2 times that RMS value. Some others say 2 -4 times the RMS. So an amp would need to have at least 900 - 1200 watts available for that one 8 ohm box. A 1,000 watt EV amp would not be big enough. I need to see a spec sheet for the amps involved. If that amp is dividing up the 1000watts so that only one cab gets 500watts and the other 500watts then it is underpowered severely. Make sense so far? Speakers really come to life when they have the right power on them. They can also fly apart if not set up properly.

See if you can get me the model numbers on the amps and speakers PLUS whatever crossover they use and we can put together a plan of action for them. Of course we can back it up with information from many sources so you won't have to CONVINCE the congregation or board but they will see for themselves.

Let me know Kibo. Hey -- you have a nice set up. I don't know that you really need to buy anything right now.

Live Sound » Spectrum Analyzer2 » Go to message
Ok Kibo -- let's start over from the beginning so we can see what is the most important thing next in the line of gear. What ALL do you have?

To answer your question on the polarity checker: Yes it is kind of a one time thing BUT you will find yourself using it constantly. Cords need repaired quite often and when your under a time constraint -- will help you quickly.

I have two monitors up front and center that are daisy chained together. These are for the singer only. The other night at a gig the singer stepped in between the two monitors and ripped the speaker cable right out of the speakon connector. I had to re-wire the thing on one of their breaks and for the most part -- in the dark. I thought I had it right just by visually looking at it. Just to make sure -- I ran the Cricket thru the entire signal path all the way to the monitor getting a Positive impulse reading. I knew it was correct.

It is an invaluable tool for sure. SMAART can and does evaluate Phase. It is a bit complicated to explain it here but if you get to that point -- I can show you how to check that. The cricket can do all of it pretty easy.

I can check a system at a gig for polarity without the sound guy even knowing what I am up to. When you get better at this -- you can actually hear the phase issues in the system. It will have a weird alien type of sound & be distant instead of in your face.
Live Sound » Spectrum Analyzer2 » Go to message
agn wrote:A cheap RTA mic is just that, and will not give you the accuracy you need. Don't waste your money on a cheap mic.

AFA Sound system setup for dummies, Smaart and other programs have tutorials, and many local pro audio suppliers have classes on it. System analysis and tuning is a very specific duty. If it is not done correctly you can do some serious damage to your system.


Just how accurate is accurate agn? If we all had a couple of thousand dollars and all of the other top of the line gear then I might consider a pair of Earthworks SR 30's BUT it will NEVER be necessary for live sound applications here. The Audix TR-40($180) is the next step up from the $100 mics. Is that good enough?

Read this thread from the DBX Forum on measurement mics. Harry Brill, Jr. a Rational Acoustics instructor talks about it and he has been doing this EXTENSIVELY for the last 25 years. Here is what he has to say about $100 mics:

http://www.dbxpro.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=1894

AGN -- When you post -- PLEASE explain your reasoning. Don't throw out a "Oh Huh!" You seem to know a lot about sound & I am always eager to learn. When I say something on here that begins to make a member cringe -- I don't want them to feel bad or inferior or whatever........ and if they ask me "Dr. J, can you explain that to me better or can you give me an example or where did you get that information", I would be happy to do that.

I have read countless posts from you on the other forum and it is time for you to re-evaluate your approach.

A $100 measurement mic WILL get you closer than no measurement mic at all. That is really what we are trying to figure out here. What would be the next move in this crazy expensive world of audio gear and how can I make it sound better for less. It doesn't make sense to spend $800 on a mic when you can get a speaker management device like a DR 260 for $700 and a measurement mic for $100. You will have gained much more because you have more tools to work with.

The only way I can see a guy wrecking his system with Smaart is by running Pink Noise at full military power which doesn't need to be done. I suppose the gain structure needs to be set first as well BUT come on -- with a little encouragement and help -- most guys CAN get this down.

Your posts always have the "Oh Huh" in there and the doom and gloom factor. With all your knowledge -- try to be more of a teacher. There is a lot to this sound thing than just turning knobs and using your ears.

Can you do that?
Live Sound » Spectrum Analyzer2 » Go to message
kibo wrote:hi jerryd,

about the polarity of the cables, i have a behringer cable tester? would that be ok to test the polarity? i have a digital multitester too. i made most of my cables and just tested them with the cable tester.


so if im working with the churchs' amp, i would have to trust that the speaker polarity is ok right? if not, how will i test it with a multitester? just simply reading a positive value and figure the red and black leads? i know with the k12s i dont have to do that right? can you tell me how your phase tester works if you dont mind?

just curious why i need to have a crossover with my k12s? if i use one of the Ksubs or kwsubs in the future would i still need time delay? maybe it depends where i place my subs right?

i havent read much about the DR260 but i think it is very nice! does it come with an RTA? im thinking now that in the long run DR260 will be very useful if i want to grow my system. i have to do a lot of explaining to my wife.... hahaha! hard to justify these things. ive just started this march doing this stuff and it has been fast with the SL and K12s.
kibo


Hey Kibo, That would work fine. If the continuity of the cable is good (+2 lights up green & when switch is moved to pin 3 mode -- you get a RED light), then the polarity will be good. Follow the instructions manual with your tester to make sure you know what it all means. I am sure you already do. Do the check with EVERY XLR cable you have.

About the Church Polarity thing: No not really. The fact that it is in a church means you really should check it. There has probably been numerous novices tweaking with that system doing this and doing that....etc. Church systems are the worst & the current sound guy may not like anyone messing with it. (sounds like all sound guys)

Like I said before -- you would THINK coming from a reputable company that everything would be in check right? If I had the K12's and the KSub -- I would be all over them searching for possible issues. Why? Because the stuff most likely wasn't assembled here in the US (Like that would make a difference) BUT my point is -- There are so many places where the polarity can get inverted that you want to have a system that functions the way it is supposed to. When the drummer stomps his kick drum -- there needs to be a POSITIVE OUTWARD motion of the speakers when it finally gets thru the signal path & then on out to your ears.

In Bob McCarthy's book on Sound system optimization there is a whole chapter dedicated to Examination & then another on Verification. He doesn't trust anything until he confirms it. So you are going to go thru the gear using your eyes for inspection, your tester for cable continuity, use your multi-tester for speaker cable testing. Use a 9 volt battery on your speaker leads to make sure the cone moves outward with a postive impulse on it. If you can't get into your K12's (Don't VOID the warranty) use a connected speaker cable to the k12 with one end where you can get a 9 volt on it and make sure the cone moves outward with a postive impulse. Don't ever use a 9 volt on a horn. It may torch it. Horns are a different discussion & that is where a polarity checker is handy.

Do a search on "The Cricket" by Galaxy Audio. They are about $100 and do all kinds of things. You have a send unit and a receive unit. One sends the signal into the system & the other one measures it. You can check microphones with it too and YES microphones can be wired backwards. Trust nothing when it comes to optimizing your system.

Do you need a crossover? Well with the K12's and the KSubs -- Nope. So if you wanted to get a stand alone parametric like LowTech was saying and he bought -- that may be the way to go. I didn't catch you had a KSub. If you had another brand of sub that was passive I would say YES.

Honestly -- you shouldn't have to do anything with the K setup BUT if you are like me - I would want to measure it with Smaart and see where I am at.

Your top boxes (K12's) are already aligned. If you place your top directly on top of your subs -- you probably won't have to align the top with the sub. If your subs are away from the top boxes -- then aligning them would be beneficial. It would sound cleaner because the mid woofer (top box) and the sub are hitting exactly in synch with each other.

The 260 is incredible in so many ways and would be a must have for me. I could take a 260 and my smaart setup & within two hours make anyone's system sound better than a system that hasn't been optimized.

Hang in there Kibo -- you are on the right track.
StudioLive General Discussion » PC Question regarding Firewire » Go to message
LowTech -- thanks! And CONGRATULATIONS on the little one! Truly God's greatest gift ever! I have 3 children with the youngest just turning 6 last Thursday.

I will email you the specs on the laptop.

Thanks Buddy!
StudioLive General Discussion » PC Question regarding Firewire » Go to message
zemlin wrote:Zoinks! That's bad news for me. I've been using the 4-wire firewire on my laptop for recording from my Echo Audiofire gear - I assumed it would work for this board as well. I was going do some testing with the laptop tonight - I guess I'll be prepared for problems.


Hold Up Zemlin ....... I don't think it is a 4 pin firewire thing for every laptop -- Just my laptop. Sorry for the confusion. Your laptop may be just fine. I used a buddy of mine laptop and it was cool.

If your laptop will sync with the board and you can open the Universal Controller -- then chances are you are fine. Don't panic yet.

Jerry D.
StudioLive General Discussion » PC Question regarding Firewire » Go to message
Hey guys -- I know a lot of you on here use PC's for recording with Capture. I have a bunch of PC's and NONE of them will record with Capture (they are at least five years old & probably why) so I currently use a MAC G4 with OSX 10.5 on it. As long as I don't record enable every channel -- I might be able to get through the first hour or so of a show. The longer the recording -- the more time for hiccups and skips ....etc. It is time for me to do something about this. I use an External 7200RPM speed hard drive and it seems to help but after all this time -- I still don't have a flawless recording.

So here is my question: My wife's laptop is fairly new. I got it for her about a year ago and I have been told by Presonus that the internal firewire (4 pin) is just not compatible. Have any of you used an express card slot adapter with firewire ports on it with success? What do I need to do to get this going? Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks Guys!
Live Sound » Spectrum Analyzer2 » Go to message
Kibo -- Systune should be fine. All Dual FFT analyzers basically do the same thing -- which is measuring the frequency response of your system. So, I think you will be fine. I was introduced to Smaart and that it the only program I know. Maybe I will download systune and fool with it just to see how it compares to SMAART but if you got the program for free -- then that is cool.

Don't get hung up in the best measurement mic. I have several DBX models & they are all fine so get what you can afford. In the mean time -- you can start evaluating your gear. For example: Go through ALL of your cables and make sure they are wired correctly. I use a polarity checker called a Galaxy Cricket BUT it costs money so you can use a cheap "Multi-Meter" ($10.00) and use it to confirm cables wired correctly. The standard for mic cables: PIN 1 = Shield, PIN 2 = HOT, PIN 3 = Cold. So find PIN 1 on both ends and check it to see if you get a connection and repeat for ever pin and every cable. It is going to take a while. Don't assume the factory got it right for you. I have a $2,000 mixer that came straight from the factory to me with the main output polarity INVERTED! So -- I know cables can be wrong.

What happens when you go thru this process is an eye opener AND you will really get to learn your system forwards and backwards. You will be able to diagnose on the fly pretty easily if something comes up.

Good job Kibo! Hey one more thing - With your K12's -- you may be better off going with something else other than the DR PX. The reason I say that is you are only going to have 3 parametrics available to you to smooth out your response. You will gain two more if you have subs. Three is OK BUT usually it will take a few more to get it within + or - 3dB. You still need a crossover though right? The PX doesn't have time alignment either. The DRPA does (10ms). What would do an incredible job would be the DR 260. You would have 9 Pre XO parametrics available and 4 Post XO. That is 13 if you use the full range tops. You get four more for your subs if needed and if you had bi-amped tops -- you gain another 4. The DR 260 has a brick wall limiter the other two DR's do not. The tool set in the 260 is so far beyond the PA and the PX. BUT again, it costs more. I know the PX come with a measurement mic in a package deal so I know that is appealing. The 260 doesn't cost much more than the PA+ and is waay better. I know where you can get a 260 for under $700 brand new. it comes with the GUI software and you can actually run it on your laptop as well.

 
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