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Preamps overload very easily on 1818 ------->>> SOLVED! via Audiobox VSL 1.2 Driver
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Kahlbert
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themuzic wrote:
roblof wrote:
Oh, I just noticed that the impedance differs quite a bit - By 70%. This means that a higher signal is hitting the input stage on the vsl1818 with almost twice the signal (or 3dB if my math is correct) compared to the sl24.

If we translate the numbers then the vsl1818 has an effective gain control range of -12dB to +68dB compared to the sl24. This means that you can hit the sl24 with a 4dB higher signal compared to the vsl1818 before you run out of headroom.


That's the problem right there!! Why would they make such an adjustment? Because of USB? Just a guess. They should have left the impedance the same as the SL24. no?

Now, this is an interesting question.
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Unclejambo
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This seems like a major issue to me and unless I'm mistaken, I'm yet to see an official response from Presonus on the matter. Worrying when I have a SL24 being used regularly at gigs.

Seems like a fix could earn them a heap more sales and return custom from people who already own the audiobox.
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themuzic
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Unclejambo wrote:This seems like a major issue to me and unless I'm mistaken, I'm yet to see an official response from Presonus on the matter. Worrying when I have a SL24 being used regularly at gigs.

Seems like a fix could earn them a heap more sales and return custom from people who already own the audiobox.


They gave an official response some time ago. Jason pointed out that the units operate as per the specs and that we need to adjust how we setup.

It seemed pretty clear to me they are what they are.

Here are the facts (as pointed out above)

The impedance differs quite a bit - By 70%. This means that a higher signal is hitting the input stage on the vsl1818 with almost twice the signal (or 3dB) compared to the sl24. The vsl1818 has an effective gain control range of -12dB to +68dB compared to the sl24. This means that you can hit the sl24 with a 4dB higher signal compared to the vsl1818 before you run out of headroom.


Like I said earlier, this explains alot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 01/02/2012 21:19:31


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Unclejambo
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themuzic wrote:
They gave an official response some time ago. Jason pointed out that the units operate as per the specs and that we need to adjust how we setup.

It seemed pretty clear to me they are what they are.



Fair enough, I'd not seen an official response. Where can I find it?

Still though, a preamp that clips with no gain strikes me as a fault that needs addressing. Similarly, so does an exagerated logarithmic response that causes a leap from loads of headroom to clipping with the tiniest turn of a knob as others have reported. It's almost like selling a bike with an unusable gear-ratio and telling people to pedal harder

There's no "it is what it is" on a £399 interface. It may still be an option for me as it seems the most likely candidate for a compact live solution for an occasional venue. I'm sure I can "fix" non-phantom channels with xlr attenuators it's just a shame that I'd have to.
Jamie-Lee Warlow - Front Of House/Tour Manager/Driver

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web: www.jamie-foh.com

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Quote from Jason from this thread
http://forumsarchive.presonus.com/posts/list/18175.page


"Our engineers have gone over this and the boxes perform as they were intended. The preamps are sensitive, yes, but NOT overly so. The entire design has a bit less headroom than, say, a Studiolive mixer. That does not mean that they are of less quality, it just means you've got to turn down your input source a bit or fiddle with mic placement to get the best sound out of them. Again, a sound engineer knows this and will adjust accordingly. This is audio production and sometimes takes a bit of work.

Cheers,

Jason"



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 02/02/2012 04:06:48

Focusrite 18i20. An '1818' that actually works as advertised and has great support!! But Presonus will continue the story it was all my systems and there is no hardware issue with the 1818 and the drivers are great.

Almost two years on and Presonus continues to say it's a 'top priority' but have no driver updates, make excuses and blame others (Intel, USB3 Microsoft, Apple and now the company that writes their drivers!) when other companies have it all working on the same systems!! And it so refreshing to get regular software updates and responsive and effective support!

And the 1818 does not have 'on-board DSP' as continues to be claimed.
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beachside wrote:Quote from Jason from this thread
http://forumsarchive.presonus.com/posts/list/18175.page


"Our engineers have gone over this and the boxes perform as they were intended. The preamps are sensitive, yes, but NOT overly so. The entire design has a bit less headroom than, say, a Studiolive mixer. That does not mean that they are of less quality, it just means you've got to turn down your input source a bit or fiddle with mic placement to get the best sound out of them. Again, a sound engineer knows this and will adjust accordingly. This is audio production and sometimes takes a bit of work.

Cheers,

Jason"


Yeah, that's the one. So, if you're unhappy with the 1818VSL, return it or sell it! That's as good as it will get.

The main beef is that they set the bar so high with the Firestudio Models and (to some people) lowered it for the USB models. Presonus doesn't view it as "Lesser Quality" but if your customers think it is, then sales (or lack there of) along with the return rate, will prove otherwise, in fact.

As I have stated, I have an 1818vsl and a 22vsl. I like them and use them and while Jason is right that an actual "Sound Engineer" will know how to get passed the touchy pres, I've talked to several people now and they feel he has inadvertently insulted a good portion of his customer base by his statements.

The "Sound" quality is every bit as good as the Firestudio Models in my side by side tests but the "Overall" quality, to many people, is not for 2 reasons

1. touchy pres
2. the inability to use lower latencies on some systems (without the VSL Software)

When you cater and advertise "Best Bang For the Buck" or "Superior Quality for the Lowest Price" you get more than just actual "Sound Engineers"




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Unclejambo
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I still think any pre that can possibly clip with zero gain on a snare mic is badly designed. That the unit boasts the same pre's as other presonus products you'd expect the same quality.

That official statement, to me at least, attempts to defer blame to the end-user. Almost suggesting you're a bad engineer if it clips! It's nonsense. Many people close-mic or chose specific mics based on tonality. Adjusting either because there's not enough pre-amp headroom can in some cases prevent them from getting the best results.

I've been fortunate enough to make a living as a sound engineer the past 6 years and did it for a hobby before that. In that time I've never come across a preamp that could clip, on microphones, at its lowest setting that wasn't accompanied by a pad switch.

All said and done, I'm yet to try this unit and see it's issues for myself. It's still appealing to me for other reasons (more so if they add an audiobox profile to the ipad software) and I may take the plunge. I just feel it's something clearly seen as a problem by many that presonus have failed to properly address.
Jamie-Lee Warlow - Front Of House/Tour Manager/Driver

email:info@jamie-foh.com
web: www.jamie-foh.com

Head Engineer - Hobos Music Venue
House Engineer - Clwb Ifor Bach

UK/EU/US Tour and Festival Experience with:
Man Without Country
Royal Canoe
Karin Park
Drenge
The Boy Royals
Caesars Rome
beachside
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Unclejambo wrote: I've never come across a preamp that could clip, on microphones, at its lowest setting that wasn't accompanied by a pad switch. .


Likewise. I think Presonus has under-estermated the damage to their brand the handling of this is doing.
Focusrite 18i20. An '1818' that actually works as advertised and has great support!! But Presonus will continue the story it was all my systems and there is no hardware issue with the 1818 and the drivers are great.

Almost two years on and Presonus continues to say it's a 'top priority' but have no driver updates, make excuses and blame others (Intel, USB3 Microsoft, Apple and now the company that writes their drivers!) when other companies have it all working on the same systems!! And it so refreshing to get regular software updates and responsive and effective support!

And the 1818 does not have 'on-board DSP' as continues to be claimed.
jjones
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Hi All,

Let me start off by saying that each of us here at PreSonus value all of our customers concerns and comments about our products. We take pride in our work and would hope that our customers feel a since of pride in using our gear. We also value our customers enough to listen and take heed to their constructive criticisms. The AudioBox interfaces are some of the greatest interfaces that have come from the PreSonus line. I know this because I use them personally. However if the AudioBox interfaces do not meet or at least attempt to meet the highest standard of our customers then it is our job as a company to heed our customers call for excellence. If you (our customers) feel that the preamps are too sensitive then we as a company are obligated to look into it (which by the way we are) I will not make assurances or promises that I cannot keep but I can and will do all that I can so that you (the customer) feel satisfied with your purchase.
John Jones
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crow
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well i have a question? i was wanting 2 buy a audiobox my self but the mic pre is a biggie for me cause i track vocals more than anything. but whats instore or should i say in the works for this new line? i want 2 buy one so bad but not untill something is fixed
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jjones
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Hi Crow,

Let me clarify. There's no new line of AudioBox interfaces in the works as of now. We're just looking into customers concerns about the preamps. Let me also state that I've not experienced sensitive clipping with the 22 or 44VSL. Are you only interested in the 1818?
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crow
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no the 44VSL and i was wondering how do the pres's compare to the eureka i have the eureka and was wondering if the pre sounds almost the same and if i got the 22vsl insteed will it work with my eureka?
LIFE IS A SCHOOL! SO TELL ME WHAT DID YOU LEARN?


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jpettit
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As a customer of the 1818 VSL for nearly 5 months, I can tell everyone that there are two areas that need to be understood. to use it properly.

1) Metering
2) Gain

1) The Metering on the VSL is inadequate and PreSonus could fix that Immediately with an update to its drivers.
See this post http://forumsarchive.presonus.com/posts/list/19283.page

2) The 1818 VSL electronically has more gain than previous interfaces. The mention it in their spec page.
Gain Control Range -15 dB to +65 dB
Input Max Headroom + 16 dBu, < 0.5% THD
Input Impedance 1.7 k?

Depending on your mic, it may require you to:
a) insert a pad on the mic
b) move the mic back
c) use a different mic

If non of these option are feasible then please be aware of the spec different when considering buying the interface.

If you have no issue with adopting a different set up, then fear not and make your purchase.
I believe the interface is a great bang for the buck.


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themuzic
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jjones wrote:Hi All,

Let me start off by saying that each of us here at PreSonus value all of our customers concerns and comments about our products. We take pride in our work and would hope that our customers feel a since of pride in using our gear. We also value our customers enough to listen and take heed to their constructive criticisms. The AudioBox interfaces are some of the greatest interfaces that have come from the PreSonus line. I know this because I use them personally. However if the AudioBox interfaces do not meet or at least attempt to meet the highest standard of our customers then it is our job as a company to heed our customers call for excellence. If you (our customers) feel that the preamps are too sensitive then we as a company are obligated to look into it (which by the way we are) I will not make assurances or promises that I cannot keep but I can and will do all that I can so that you (the customer) feel satisfied with your purchase.


Wow. This is why Presonus is at the top of my recommendation list when I build client systems. I was going to try to put together a video documenting some of the issues my clients have brought to me. Especially when it comes to Snare micing, but my credibility level with Presonus ain't what it used to be

So I'll just explain here, one of the major issues brought to me by Many of my clients that are, for example, just using an SM57 on a Snare and having the gain knob all the way down, it still clips.....BADLY sometimes. Now it has been suggested that inexperience is at play here and we're directed to simply pull the mic back.

Well, that's fine, well and good but there are 2 issues here with this suggestion.

1. First, in some cases, pulling the mic back, we're still getting clips
2. Having to do so, we now have lost the "Close Mic" option so we can eliminate bleed from other instruments.

May not seem like a big deal to the "Real Engineers" (as has been suggested) but to the average guy recording drums in his garage that is not properly sound proofed (because many can not afford it or it's not their garage) but to the average guy just learning, it can be a frustrating and is not an issue with cheaper, less sound quality interfaces.

I've been an engineer and producer for 25 years

Just making note!

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gospeltunes
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Well, like I said in a post in the "Generall Discussion" forum, we should get some time of preamp fix like Roland did for its customers on the VS2480 line. I will wait a little while longer for the conclusion to this matter because Presonus has (in my experience) been a great company so far. So hopefully things will work out.

If not, I'll have to sell my 1818 at a substantial loss, and probably never look at buying Presonus hardware again. I'm not one to rant, but I will speak with my wallet. If asked about Presonus in the future, I'll simply say, "They make great software, and many people like their hardware, but I had a real bad experience with their hardware one time, so I don't buy hardware from them anymore."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 03/02/2012 21:40:03

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