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normalize audio??
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gearhead79
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Joined: 27/08/2010 07:22:18
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I'm wondering about the normalize audio function.
does it degrade the timbre or dynamics of the tracks?
gearhead79
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sorry for the double topic..... Smart phones,dumb people
Kahlbert
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Chito CN
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i think normalizing a track is actually considered destructive. might the pros in here agree/disagree?
Newbie here, so please forgive me for asking more questions than answering them.

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themuzic
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Chito CN wrote:i think normalizing a track is actually considered destructive. might the pros in here agree/disagree?


The normalize feature in S1 does not alter the sound at all. No compression is added or anything to change the sound. It simply takes the loudest peak and brings it to "0" db, so far as I can see.

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Rangersam
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Normalise is not a destructive function.

The discussion about the detrimental effect of normalise is re 2 things; digital noise and analogue noise.

The analogue noise is the noise from the mic, mic pre, compressor, all the things that contribute noise prior to
going into the A/D (analogue to digital converter).

Digital noise is simply the sound of a sample as we reduce the number of bits and resolution.

When you normalise, both of these are increased. Good gain structure and management will normally see peaks at about -10 to -6 for a raw recorded file, and normalising is neither required nor is it destructive. Normalise becomes desuctive when the original file is recorded so low that both the analogue noise floor and digital noise floor become conspicuous. Good metering in the analogue domain is vital to attain both good s/n ratio in the pre digital and digital part of the recording chain.

The old guys, used to tape, are very aware of good gain structure because tape noise was the controlling factor. Digital is far more forgiving, and you have to really mess up to start to hear the limitations of the medium.
Intel Core I7 3770,ASUS P8Z68-V-LE MOTHERBOARD
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themuzic
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Rangersam wrote:Normalise is not a destructive function.

The discussion about the detrimental effect of normalise is re 2 things; digital noise and analogue noise.

The analogue noise is the noise from the mic, mic pre, compressor, all the things that contribute noise prior to
going into the A/D (analogue to digital converter).

Digital noise is simply the sound of a sample as we reduce the number of bits and resolution.

When you normalise, both of these are increased. Good gain structure and management will normally see peaks at about -10 to -6 for a raw recorded file, and normalising is neither required nor is it destructive. Normalise becomes desuctive when the original file is recorded so low that both the analogue noise floor and digital noise floor become conspicuous. Good metering in the analogue domain is vital to attain both good s/n ratio in the pre digital and digital part of the recording chain.

The old guys, used to tape, are very aware of good gain structure because tape noise was the controlling factor. Digital is far more forgiving, and you have to really mess up to start to hear the limitations of the medium.


A perfect explanation !!

Hooray for us "Old Guys".....lol

And for us old guys, a nice and clean noise floor was nearly impossible till the Digital wars.

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Email - homestudiotrainer@yahoo.com
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Phone - 773-303-7260
I offer FREE assistance for Studio One (any version) and Presonus hardware, to anyone having issues or anyone who simply wants to learn

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Rangersam
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themuzic wrote:

A perfect explanation !!

Hooray for us "Old Guys".....lol

And for us old guys, a nice and clean noise floor was nearly impossible till the Digital wars.


Thanks mate
Intel Core I7 3770,ASUS P8Z68-V-LE MOTHERBOARD
500G Seagate SATA (projects),500G Seagate SATA (samples),500G Seagate SATA (apps).
Low noise case(Antec Solo). Acer x233h LCD, LG1510S.

RME Multiface x2,RME ADI2, Lucid 2496. Casio Privia PX-3,Behringer BCF2000,BCR2000.
Soundworkshop Series30 console (channels rackmounted in groups of 8 ).
Dynaudio BM15 speakers. Loads of mics and Pres and other junk.

Win8.1 64,Win7 64,StudioOnePro,Soundforge10, CD Arch5,
Reason6.5,Recycle, Waves Plugins, Drumcore 3.0, Korg legacy digital and analogue.
Native Instruments Komplete8,Alicia's Keys,Vintage compressors,Premium tube series.


i74770, Asus Z87-C, Acerx233h, M-Audio delta66,RME ADI2 (home PC).

Rangersam used to be called moopyhog (who died in the revolution).

talmen
Presonoid
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Yeah, I agree -- super explanation. A lot of people think that raising the level digitally will somehow alter the sound, and it really doesn't. It will raise the level of whatever noise is present right along with the signal, but it won't add anything that wasn't there, and you won't lose anything, either.

Thanks RangerSam for your excellent explanation. May I quote you on it when others seek similar information?
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Kahlbert
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I agree it's a very good explanation, but I (slightly) disagree with the conclusion that normalising doesn't change the sound whatsoever.

It is a calculation - and an unneccessary one -, the precision of which being limited by the host's calculation capabilities, so mathematically speaking it will introduce a rounding/truncation error.

Of course nobody will be able to actually hear that error - especially with today's 32 or even 64 bit float precision -, but I'm all in for avoiding any signal alteration that's not necessary.
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themuzic
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Kahlbert wrote:I agree it's a very good explanation, but I (slightly) disagree with the conclusion that normalising doesn't change the sound whatsoever.

It is a calculation - and an unneccessary one -, the precision of which being limited by the host's calculation capabilities, so mathematically speaking it will introduce a rounding/truncation error.

Of course nobody will be able to actually hear that error - especially with today's 32 or even 64 bit float precision -, but I'm all in for avoiding any signal alteration that's not necessary.


True. But I think if you clone a track and on one turn up the fader and on the other normalize it in S1, you're not not going to be able to tell them apart. No offense intended but I just did it with 4 different sets of tracks and had my son switch between the 2 while I closed my eyes. Couln't tell at all.

I may have lost my voice but not my ears.....yet...lol

(from one old guy to another )

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 21/11/2010 12:33:19

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Kahlbert
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Yeah, of course you can't tell the difference, because turning the fader up is exactly the same, mathematical-wise, as normalizing. That's why I cunningly talked about any processing.

But sure, you're right, sometimes people tend to forget that anything you do in a DAW is some sort of processing and involves calculation - except changing track colors maybe ...
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themuzic
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Kahlbert wrote:

Yeah, of course you can't tell the difference, because turning the fader up is exactly the same, mathematical-wise, as normalizing. That's why I cunningly talked about any processing.

But sure, you're right, sometimes people tend to forget that anything you do in a DAW is some sort of processing and involves calculation - except changing track colors maybe ...


Now, track colors can effect my mood....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 21/11/2010 18:00:53

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Chito CN
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Rangersam wrote:Normalise is not a destructive function.

The discussion about the detrimental effect of normalise is re 2 things; digital noise and analogue noise.

The analogue noise is the noise from the mic, mic pre, compressor, all the things that contribute noise prior to
going into the A/D (analogue to digital converter).

Digital noise is simply the sound of a sample as we reduce the number of bits and resolution.

When you normalise, both of these are increased. Good gain structure and management will normally see peaks at about -10 to -6 for a raw recorded file, and normalising is neither required nor is it destructive. Normalise becomes desuctive when the original file is recorded so low that both the analogue noise floor and digital noise floor become conspicuous. Good metering in the analogue domain is vital to attain both good s/n ratio in the pre digital and digital part of the recording chain.

The old guys, used to tape, are very aware of good gain structure because tape noise was the controlling factor. Digital is far more forgiving, and you have to really mess up to start to hear the limitations of the medium.



Glad i asked the pros to speak up. Don't want to put out any false information. Whew!
Newbie here, so please forgive me for asking more questions than answering them.

iMac 2.8 Ghz
Event ASP 6
Equator D5
Tascam VLM3
M-Audio Projectmix
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gearhead79
Prenoob

Joined: 27/08/2010 07:22:18
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thnx 4 the info!
 
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