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Mixing FOH and Ear Mixes off the same board...sound quality...
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jrsmiles
Prenoob

Joined: 28/06/2012 00:08:33
Messages: 9
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Excuse me if I'm not completely versed in this topic, but I'm trying to figure it out. My band uses a SL24 for just about everything. Lots of times we run our own sound, sometimes we hire a sound guy to run our board and system, other times we use our board and splitter snake to patch it in so we can have our own ear mixes at bigger places. Other times we yank our ear transmitters out of the rack and give them to the FOH guy to mix for us if it's a bigger place.

My question comes down to when we are running FOH and monitors off of our board at the same time. We never get a stellar ear mix doing this. The other night we played a show with house sound. They ran a Yahmaha board, either an M7 or LS9, can't remember which. Our ears and house sounded amazing.

I got to thinking about it and it seems that we never will be able to do this because if you're EQ'ing a channel to sound good coming out of subs and tops, that same channel is not going to sound good when heard through tiny in ear speakers. The engineer at the above referenced gig said that the SL is the only digital board out there that doesn't allow for separate EQ'ing of FOH and monitor channels.

The more I think about it the more I'm confused. I know we have a bunch of open 31 band EQs available in the board, we are only using left and right main EQs at the moment, so we should have 6 more available right? Should I setup to assign an EQ to each of the 6 monitor mixes we use? Does that fix it?

I guess my question is, how do we get the best sounding ear mix while getting the best sounding FOH mix at the same time?
gadget69
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Joined: 21/09/2010 03:56:19
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That guy is not correct...Not only can you insert GEQ'as (not recommended for IEM.s) you have PEQ's, and you can select post eq and dynamics for the individual channels and you have full fat channel processing for each individual mix as well...

It does take someone that knows what they are doing to get the most out of your equipment, and generally the places that have large systems have techs that know there stuff...

There is a LOT of help online to to give you the ability to learn your own equipment, you could also hire someone to set things up for you...I have mixed on both and to my ears the Yamaha's sound sterile and uninspiring ... the Sl was good, but the Ai is something altogether better...

You have all the tools available, you just need to learn to use them... with technology comes responsibility... and educating yourselves will make all the difference...

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jrsmiles
Prenoob

Joined: 28/06/2012 00:08:33
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I think I have a pretty decent handle of my equipment, I understand what it all does, I'm just not getting the results I would expect and I'm thinking out loud here to maybe help understand it better.

I understand the Pre 1 and Pre 2 settings for the auxes, when using the board for FOH and monitors I run the auxes in pre fat channel, so that adjustments to the FOH sound won't affect the monitor mix. When using the board for only monitors, I run it post fat channel in order to take advantage of all the fat channel processing in the ears.

My question still remains though, how do you get the best monitor sound quality when running pre fat channel? Do you just have to settle for the PEQ on the fat channel over the whole mix instead of eq'ing individual channels, in addition to the GEQ available for aux assignment. Seems that if you're trying to fix the bass guitar in the mix, adjusting the PEQ on the fat channel will also adjust the kick, toms and everything else in the mix. I'm not finding the level of control over each channel independent of the FOH signal.
SwitchBack
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Joined: 17/02/2011 01:10:03
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Yes, you're right. Per input channel there's only one EQ&Dynamics setting. So optimizing that setting for an all channels mix will compromise a mix of just a few channels for a monitor.

Having said that, use the SL correctly and the room response (or the response of the buds) will not be part of that equation. Those differences should have been dealt with with the EQ&Dynamics settings of the outputs. So first tune the output FAT settings (the Smaart tools are great for that), and only then tweak the inputs.

PS. For tuning the in-ear outputs have each band member bring their favorite CD.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 22/12/2013 02:00:18

mwright137
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Joined: 28/10/2011 17:57:00
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SwitchBack beat me to it. I make the room flat, then make each channel sound good. I've never had an issue with the monitors not sounding good if the FAT channel is used in this way, not to try and correct for a messed up room...
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gadget69
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Joined: 21/09/2010 03:56:19
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What does your system consist of... speaker/amps/controller?

1. properly tuned and set up speakers so that your not using Channel EQ to correct for speaker issues with channel Eq...
2. Smaart integration to help eliminate room issues on FOH
3. good sounding properly interfaced instruments and mics/ mic techniques to get the most out of each source
4. Properly tuned and set up instruments... especially drums...
5. Minimal stage volume to help the balance between stage and FOH
6. good vocal mic technique
7. Good sounding flat response monitors/in ears

So, if the system is well tuned and relatively flat from 170-5KHZ , and the monitors are flat in the same range, any change made to the inputs should serve well for both FOH and monitors....this is where the Pre2 comes into play...These are also attributes that are likely in the system you spoke of...

I know you say you have a good grasp of your system but correctly set up systems are few and far between...and those that can do it right are rare, but as we work to improve this one system at a time the ratio of good sounding systems is on the rise...(but still woefully limited) Todays active powered speakers are better and better, especially the prominent ones like QSC K and some of the composite types have come a long way towards better, more accurate sound. If your using tops and subs, and not using a matched set, or don't have a system controller, and know how to tune the system, your likely fighting the systems sound.



















NOTE: If your having an issue, open a tech support ticket and bring the number here if you want help!
http://support.presonus.com

Tools:
OHCI tool and Latency mon:
http://forums.presonus.com/posts/list/11348.page

We, the few, that have done so much, for so long that now we can do everyything with nothing

dbx forum moderator

Lenova Ideapad Z565
Best connectivity Express card/firewire 2 port (400) that does NOT suggest having the TI chipset. (always worked great)
BYTECC Express card (400/800)07150358281

Asus/AMD processor tower. This setups just works on all firewire devices.

Belkin N450 dual band router, works with SL and Ai mixers
Studiolive 16:4:2
SL Ai24.4.2
ABUSB 1818VSL
Faderport
USB pre interface
Studio one Pro V2
LABsubs

loads of audio, and studio gear, and audiophile sound gear (gearslut)
[Email] [Yahoo!]
Jerryd
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Joined: 28/07/2010 16:01:24
Messages: 698
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If you use the same mics, same instruments, same everything gig to gig..... Then you shouldn't have to change the board from gig to gig. With that said it would be ok to use the Pre 2 to the Auxes to gain a little more individual sound from each instrument.

I prefer a stereo in ear mix with some panning that is set according to the band mates on stage so that it makes sense. If one singer is on the left - I may pan them left a little... Not much. A guitar player on the right - put them a little to the right so that their position on stage makes sense.

Record a show and then go back and mix it. Next time you play it will sound good. That in my opinion is how you set it up.

I haven't changed my board mix in at least a year.... However, I change my Room EQ almost every gig. My Room EQ is my Driverack Input side of the crossover. It is almost always the sub region and low mid region.

So come up with a plan:

1. Exactly what Gadget said : Strive to get your system smoother ... Smaart can help you to spot problem areas. Remember - music should sound good thru the board with NO EQ on it. The system EQ should be used for that.... Ie.. Driverack. Once that is set - go ahead and EQ the show.

2. Record the show and your main out. Your Main out recording will tell you if you are getting close. For example: your main out recording sounds DULL.... This means your system EQ is too bright. Think about it... You hear sound out of your speakers so you channel strip EQ based off of that..... Then your Main Out mix sounds dull.... This means you under EQd on the channel strip.

Dull the system down a bit and EQ a little higher on the channel strip. After a few shows - this crazy offset will level itself off and be more even between your main out and your FOH speakers..... Now you can channel strip EQ and monitor mix EQ with confidence.... You can now mix venue to venue using one EQ and not touch the board. Only for the band that uses the same everything everytime.

I am able to run sound from the stage with this method and people can't believe we don't use a sound guy.

If I run for another band and I often do... I use headphones or ear buds to " tap into the in ear mix " and make sure my channel strip changes don't get to out of whack via the Pre 2 setting in their in ears. I use the Aux fat channel to bring it back into line. I love it!



 
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