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Drummer calls it quits!
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Big Joe Daddy
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Joined: 30/07/2010 01:24:03
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Location: Santa Ynez Valley, California
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In spite of all the progress we've made in recent months especially with the addition of the new StudioLive, our drummer has decided to call it quits. Here's what he had to say in his resignation email:

I am simply not enjoying the "recording studio" atmosphere. If you guys ever want to plug into amplifiers and just let 'er rip, give me a call.......


With the advent of the SL we introduced in-ear buds and separate monitor mixes for each musician, which is what prompted the drummer's comment about 'recording studio atmosphere'.

We're a 5-piece classic rock arrangement with drums, keys, two guitars, and bass. Anyway, it's been a tough adjustment for all of us to move to the in-ears system. Basically it was force feeding on my behalf since I eventually sprung for the purchase of everybody's ear buds. I'm looking for advice from those that have been down this path before. Here are a few questions:

1. Are you running wedges in addition to the in-ears? If so, how are they configured?

2. Are you using any techniques that allow the musician to control his own monitor mix?

3. What other tips do you have for both live and rehearsal setups when it comes to monitoring?

4. Are you doing anything different for the drummer?

Any details on your rig would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
BJD
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Peary Forrest
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Big Joe Daddy wrote:In spite of all the progress we've made in recent months especially with the addition of the new StudioLive, our drummer has decided to call it quits. Here's what he had to say in his resignation email:

I am simply not enjoying the "recording studio" atmosphere. If you guys ever want to plug into amplifiers and just let 'er rip, give me a call.......



Hey Big Joe, I don't have any real experience with in ears but from your other emails it seems like the drummer moving on will be better for you in the long run. You were having to spend to much time, money, and energy trying to make him happy and I'd venture to say you never would have made him happy.

Better luck with the next one!

Peary
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funkafize
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I reckon any resigning by email is BS. He's tryin to be all "rock" by saying lets just plug in an kick out the jams, yet he can't face upto his fellow band mates to leave. Besides band wants to improve their sound but he's not paying for the gear to achieve this. Whats the issue?
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Jerryd
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Big Joe Daddy wrote:In spite of all the progress we've made in recent months especially with the addition of the new StudioLive, our drummer has decided to call it quits. Here's what he had to say in his resignation email:

I am simply not enjoying the "recording studio" atmosphere. If you guys ever want to plug into amplifiers and just let 'er rip, give me a call.......


With the advent of the SL we introduced in-ear buds and separate monitor mixes for each musician, which is what prompted the drummer's comment about 'recording studio atmosphere'.

We're a 5-piece classic rock arrangement with drums, keys, two guitars, and bass. Anyway, it's been a tough adjustment for all of us to move to the in-ears system. Basically it was force feeding on my behalf since I eventually sprung for the purchase of everybody's ear buds. I'm looking for advice from those that have been down this path before. Here are a few questions:

Big Joe Daddy -- Everyone wants to be a rock star until they find out that they may have to work harder than a basic bar band. My take is that you want to be MORE than an average bar band. Going with IEM and utilizing the recording capabilites are awesome tools BUT it tends to make SOME musicians feel like they are being watched. What they don't understand is that there is ALOT to learn from this. There is also alot to learn by video taping yourself as well. You find by watching and listening alot of things you wish you would have done or haven't done BUT it is just to make you better. He (the drummer) apparently doesn't want to improve or at least learn from the situation and he probably will never be in a great quality band again. Just "Turn it Up, drink beer and fake it thru...etc. I know what you are going thru because I have lost band members that way too. Some people hate change. I am certain you will find another guy to fill the spot soon. Just let your drummer know that all of the recording is so you can learn and get a good quality demo out there so you can get more gigs.

1. Are you running wedges in addition to the in-ears? If so, how are they configured?

I do run both. The main singer gets two wedges just for him or herself & the rest of the band gets a couple of wedges with whatever they want in it. The drummer can have EITHER an in-ear setup OR a drum monitor. Everybody is happy either way. The in-ear tends to remove the musician away from the LIVE feel of it all. I understand that but TEMPO is key and that is what drummers must do. The monitors are configured.......well let me say it this way: After the Aux the cable runs to DRIVERACKS and then to poweramps and then onto the speakers. The Driverack is the critical link because I use it to control the response of the speakers. It really helps to have ALL monitors be exactly the same because once they are tuned -- the settings transfer to all of them. So they are configured thru the driverack. Musician's in this area LOVE my monitors (Yamaha's) not because they are Yamaha's but because they are tuned to the hilt & you can get them very clean and clear and loud. The singers usually tell me to turn them down because they just aren't used to that. It helps them to save their voice too. In-ears help that way as well.




2. Are you using any techniques that allow the musician to control his own monitor mix?

I used to because I wanted to try to help them have the flexibility BUT all they will do is constantly fool with it. Next thing you know -- everything will have to be reconfigured. If a guitar player decides in the middle of a song that he wants to reach down and crank his amp -- everything in the monitors that has guitar in it will go UP. Then the bass player doesn't know what REALLY happened so he turns up. Next, the drummer doesn't want so much bass and guitar in his ear and the whole thing is kind of circular. If it isn't discovered right off the bat -- the whole thing can go down hill fast.
Unless you have a monitor guy back there -- I would run it from the aux so you are only changing one thing at a time. This will help you avoid making a circular decision that never gets resolved until you ask, "How did everything get so Jacked!" Really it is the sound man's job to fix that stuff for you. There are plus's to having your own control so you just have to find what works best for you.


3. What other tips do you have for both live and rehearsal setups when it comes to monitoring?

The single BEST thing you can do for your monitors is EITHER buy very expensive one's (EAW micro's) or buy a Driverack and get them tuned so you won't have to deal with so much feedback on a speaker box that isn't tuned out of the shoot.

4. Are you doing anything different for the drummer?

NOPE. He gets what everyone else gets except he can have a sub back there with him to help out with the kick fullness. OR like I said earlier -- he can use in-ears. Well, I hope that helps BUT if I were you I would learn what you need to do to get the system optimized. There is NOTHING like it and all this time sitting around listening to feedback frequencies and guessing what they are or using feedback destroyers and gobs of graphic EQ's will only make matters worse. Learn to achieve a smooth frequency response and I AM TELLING YOU -- you will be on the creative side of the mixer and not the DIAGNOSTIC side of the mixer.
Dr. J

BJD

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 25/08/2010 22:38:30

Jerryd
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Big Joe -- what kind of a system do you have?
jims
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Joined: 28/07/2010 18:08:42
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Hey JerryD

That BLUE font is almost IMPOSSIBLE to read.. Blue and Black just dont mix.

And go over to the StudioLive thread .. He has spelled out his system.. Has drawings and everything.. I think I know more about his system than my own.. But he does change it almost everyday.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 25/08/2010 22:10:15

Jerryd
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jims wrote:Hey JerryD

That BLUE font is almost IMPOSSIBLE to read.. Blue and Black just dont mix.

And go over to the StudioLive thread .. He has spelled out his system.. Has drawings and everything.. I think I know more about his system than my own.. But he does change it almost everyday.


Sorry Jim. Doesn't look to bad on my monitor. The only other color that would work may be RED but it may be difficult to read as well. If I get time today -- I will go back and change the color. Presonus didn't leave us with too many good options here with the Black background.
Jerryd
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Ok -- I went and changed the color to Orange. It looks better.
jdps150
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I understand his perspective.
At church we all use in-ears w/ Avioms.
My guitar amp is behind me in a box.
It's a totally different feel. It took me close to 2yrs (3 services/ weekend & 1 nite of practice per week) to start to get used to it.
Almost all of my dynamics go right out the window, but then again I'm used to non-in ears. Very difficult to get any interaction with anyone.
None of our drummers like it, but we all 'take one for the team' so to speak.

With my band, we go old school with wedges.
I get a LOT more control & am able to interact w/ the rest of the band & congregation much better.

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skip jones
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Hey, Big Joe Daddy! Maybe after he got earbuds he realized he wasn't up to the rest of the band and this was his way of gracefully exiting. Last time I looked, there is a Bazillion drummers out there to prove they have the backbeat for a proper band.

Part of the process, how many bands have had the same members from the get go? Not many. This could end up being a good thing as a new skin smacker could bring new life to your band!

Best of luck to you and your mates!

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Jerryd
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Big Joe -- Just got a glimpse of your system. It SHOULD sound good right out of the shoot. Well -- is there anyway you can just give the drummer a wedge? That is what he wants. Honestly, I don't use in-ears myself. I was a fill in for a band a while back and everything was sequenced and on a click track. I HAD to wear them (if I didn't want to screw up) and I actually liked them. Yeah it removed me from the LIVE feel of it but I knew the show was right on track and the tempo was dead on.

As a sound guy -- we like the stage volume to be at a minimum. So IN -Ears are awesome for that. It makes the PA sound so much cleaner because it isn't being contaminated by a "BEAMY" stack of amps. You can't EQ the beam of an amp from the FOH. So as a musician -- I like everything on stage to be truly live BUT as a sound guy -- I like bands that use in ears. I also prefer Beta 58's for FOH vocals BUT then prefer 58's for monitors. I guess you can't have it all.

Is everybody else happy with all the hard work you are doing or do they feel the same way the drummer does? Find that out so you know what way to take this. If you go with wedges to get back into a more live feel then we can talk more about tuning up your system.
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Sorry, to hear about your drummer, Joe. No explaining these things, sometimes.

Certainly, not all musicians like in-ears, or simply need to spend more time with them to be comfortable with them. In the studio, too, some like phones, some hate phones, some use one ear on/one ear off to get the right feel.

Certainly, from a purely sound oriented standpoint, the lower stage volume is one of the primary advantages of in-ear. It is a trade-off, being that it takes more gear to do it, and more time to set-up/calibrate (unless everyone has their own control as in an Aviom system). A really powerful in-ear system is neat, but pretty expensive, too.

When I need to mix monitors, I prefer to have no more than 2-3 separate mixes going, and I don't like to have more than 3-4 monitors on the stage.

For rehearsal, in-ears are nice because they help keep the peace in the neighborhood (or more importantly with your wife).

I agree with Jerryd, offer him a wedge (if you want to try to keep him around) and see if that makes him happy. No reason you can't go hybrid on the mons.
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bbegley
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Something nobody seems to have addressed: tone. We tried in-ears in my band, I just couldn't get used to them. I would say, perhaps, I even hated them. I'll admit, I could really hear my voice (which might have been part of the problem, ha!) and if I were just a singer I'd probably love them. To me, the biggest drawback was guitar tone. I play primarily for the joy of hearing great guitar tone, and no matter what we did, it just sounded like a sony walkman in my ears; that is to say, no feel, or umph, too processed. I have to admit, I would probably side with your drummer. I would think I was a dinosaur unwilling to catch the wave of the future but to my relief I've noticed just about every guitarist I consider to be a "tone guy" plays with wedges, or at least one ear in and one out.
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Not agreeing or disagreeing with that bbegley. I've dealt with bands that absolutely will not use in ears.

I've found that they are harder to work to get the tone right than wedges. Because when I'm running I can assign them to a solo bus and get a listen but it's still different than what the player hears.

The biggest advantage is no feedback. I find myself on pins and needles when I run hybrid setups. One wrong move at the wedge and everyone on IEM's is stone deaf for the next week and I dont get paid. Not saying it isn't doable and that I have not had great success going hybrid but there is always the whole night's pucker factor.

I still prefer IEM's as they make my life easier from the monitor mixer or front of house. But I understand your point as well. Some people just can't get into them.

Joe, sorry to hear about your drummer. Hope you can find a replacement or a solution to help you hang onto the one you have if he is good. If you do want to set him up with a wedge to try out you could pull out your Mackie 450s. Shouldn't be too hard to EQ to something useable for testing purposes with the SL16 fat channel. That's again, if you want to deal with him.
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LT (Mono) -- great call on that concern over feedback with hybrid -- I didn't stop to think of that, which is a terrible oversight because nothing could be more important than ear safety.

I personally don't like the fuss of setting up IEMs (unless it's on a really good system where each person has their own personal mixer and you really don't have to worry about it too much). It costs a fair amount to do it really well. On the other hand I hate stage volume wars, too, and you just don't get that as much with IEMs. And, oh yeah, mean people suck.

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