image description


SL-24 pops and dies
  Forum Index » Live Sound 
Author
Message
carcrusher
Prenoob
[Avatar]

Joined: 07/01/2011 22:19:16
Messages: 39
Location: Sanford, NC
Offline

Now everybody knows I'm a longtime SL-24 owner..............
I've built SL-24 road cases for a number of you...............

But this has me shaken to the core on the whole Presonus digital platform!

Bout' 3 weeks ago I had a banquet for Boys and Girls club here in town.
Put the SL-24 up and we do soundcheck/run-thru. Console is running MacBook free
at FOH on it's usual Furman AR/Tripplite UPS power.

All of a sudden "pop" and no audio. Meters all pegged. Shut it off/on and continue with
setup. 10 mins later; "pop" it does it again! Running the 1.5.3.1 firmware.
Well, by this time we go grab the other SL-24 at the shop and replace the troublemaker.

Next night, General Shelton finishes his speech and we go to the followup comedian act.
This board has been on for about 12 hours now.
All of a sudden "pop" and THIS ONE does the same thing! WTF?
Off/On cycle and it passes audio for 5 mins, then "pop". Damn!
Crowd reacts badly to the loud DC thump thru the PA. Who wouldn't?

Now we're freaking out because this show has dollar marks all over it............
Comedian gets offstage and the band happens to have it's powered head with them and that
saves the night.

Back at the ranch:
I do a 1.6 firmware update to both of them and a factory reset. We burn "troublemaker" in and
bam, it locks up within an hour! There is no sign of distress, the board's not running hot, just a CD input to 23 & 24.
This is starting to look bad.

The second SL-24 burns in for 24 hrs with no issues. OK. It's maybe OK. I take it to the college for their
homecoming shows. 6 hrs into the show: "pop" and there is no getting it back...........
Off/On and not audio passing at all. The board is loaded with ins/mon outs............

We drag out the APB Mixrack and feverishly patch it in. I'm getting white hair from this.

Now, has anyone had this same issue and how did you fix it?
As of now, both of these are getting RA's and going back to Baton Rouge.
I have no idea what's going on................they get 117 volts, case is vented, no rough handling, pampered in every way.
This older SL has been my right arm for over a year now. I've babied them both and the case it's in
is a M1A1 tank. Can't be a handling issue. It's a firmware problem.
I'd understand one of them going down, I have a backup plan. But both?
One time time it dies while NOT connected to the computer, the next time it's connected to the Mac.

Thinking of getting a Pro1 to match these Pro2's and calling it quits on Presonus.

Dan-0;(

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 12/11/2012 02:06:55

[Email] [WWW] [MSN]
SwitchBack
Presonoid
[Avatar]

Joined: 17/02/2011 01:10:03
Messages: 1428
Offline

Not good! Right now I can think of only one reason why both boards went south in similar fashion: You had a crippled UC install on both boards. Did you use the same computer to update both boards? (both for UC1.5.3.1 and UC1.6)

I have been wondering what malicious software or even a simple download glitch might do to firmware installs. I think I've been asking this before, but I really would like to have a tool with every version of UC for verifying if the firmware update was 100% successful. Now one can only assume that all went well when the board comes back to life...
Monolithent
Supreme Baconator
[Avatar]
Joined: 28/07/2010 18:47:25
Messages: 13464
Location: Central New Jersey
Offline

Hey Dan,

You did right to get it back to Presonus. They're the only ones who can get it back to life.

Switch is on the right track with the firmware. And I will talk to Presonus about a verifier for the firmware. It's an excellent idea.
http://support.presonus.com

Tallest guy in the Mod Squad with all his hair still on his head.

No I'm not a freaking pilot!! The Air Force won't let me have a suit with a zipper...or sometimes shoestrings.

My advice and suggestions should never be considered advice or suggestions. These are mostly insane ramblings of a poor aircraft mechanic who can, strangely enough, still hear.

StudioLive 16.4.2, AudioBox 1818VSL, AudioBox 44VSL, Faderport, Digimax FS,, M-Audio Firewire 410
--MultiBoot System--
Win Vista 64/XP Pro/7 x86/7 x64 - Mac OSX Snow Leopard/Lion
Gigabyte motherboard--SYBA TI Firewire XIO2200A--i7 2600k Quad Core--16 GB DDR III--Custom 2U Rackmount--4 TB Raid (all internal SATA II)--19" Samsung HDMI LCD on pivoting VESA 1U Mount
Studio One v1 Pro x64
Studio One v1 Artist
Studio One v2 Artist
[Yahoo!]
gadget69
Presonificator
[Avatar]

Joined: 21/09/2010 03:56:19
Messages: 5008
Location: Northern Mn
Offline

I really would like to have a tool with every version of UC for verifying if the firmware update was 100% successful.


That is a GREAT question and I have asked it before!
NOTE: If your having an issue, open a tech support ticket and bring the number here if you want help!
http://support.presonus.com

Tools:
OHCI tool and Latency mon:
http://forums.presonus.com/posts/list/11348.page

We, the few, that have done so much, for so long that now we can do everyything with nothing

dbx forum moderator

Lenova Ideapad Z565
Best connectivity Express card/firewire 2 port (400) that does NOT suggest having the TI chipset. (always worked great)
BYTECC Express card (400/800)07150358281

Asus/AMD processor tower. This setups just works on all firewire devices.

Belkin N450 dual band router, works with SL and Ai mixers
Studiolive 16:4:2
SL Ai24.4.2
ABUSB 1818VSL
Faderport
USB pre interface
Studio one Pro V2
LABsubs

loads of audio, and studio gear, and audiophile sound gear (gearslut)
[Email] [Yahoo!]
fxk
Presonic

Joined: 09/09/2011 02:32:39
Messages: 122
Location: Md suburbs of DC
Offline

Add me to the list of board firmware verifier - and SW verifier on the computer.
Thanks, Mono!
Monolithent
Supreme Baconator
[Avatar]
Joined: 28/07/2010 18:47:25
Messages: 13464
Location: Central New Jersey
Offline

Message has been sent. We won't hear anything back on it unless Presonus has a specific answer.

So just keep your fingers crossed but holding your breath might not be the best alternative. It could be a while for them to implement it if they're able.
http://support.presonus.com

Tallest guy in the Mod Squad with all his hair still on his head.

No I'm not a freaking pilot!! The Air Force won't let me have a suit with a zipper...or sometimes shoestrings.

My advice and suggestions should never be considered advice or suggestions. These are mostly insane ramblings of a poor aircraft mechanic who can, strangely enough, still hear.

StudioLive 16.4.2, AudioBox 1818VSL, AudioBox 44VSL, Faderport, Digimax FS,, M-Audio Firewire 410
--MultiBoot System--
Win Vista 64/XP Pro/7 x86/7 x64 - Mac OSX Snow Leopard/Lion
Gigabyte motherboard--SYBA TI Firewire XIO2200A--i7 2600k Quad Core--16 GB DDR III--Custom 2U Rackmount--4 TB Raid (all internal SATA II)--19" Samsung HDMI LCD on pivoting VESA 1U Mount
Studio One v1 Pro x64
Studio One v1 Artist
Studio One v2 Artist
[Yahoo!]
rockstardave
Presonic
[Avatar]

Joined: 29/07/2010 01:02:17
Messages: 322
Location: buffalo ny
Offline

ya this happened to me with 2 of my 3 SL16s. both were on the newest UC (1.6) and its happened when they are stand-alone, or when they're connected to my macbook pro, or when linked with each other.

these presonus boards are starting to make me think more seriously about the behringer stuff.

i'd love to get a Soundcraft Si compact, but that's not in the budget. behringer is. going back to my onyx is. going back to my GL2400 is.

sorry presonus. you'd better get this fixed up PROPERLY or else you'll be losing sales BIG TIME.
2xSL16 , KW-series , Macbook pro / ipad , fairly decent mics and DI boxes.
[WWW]
lifegatesound
Presonic
[Avatar]

Joined: 15/07/2012 05:49:25
Messages: 184
Offline

Wow. That's pretty scary, Dan.

Grasping for straws here: what type of Tripplite UPS are you running? Here's why I ask: many UPSs are not "True Sine Wave" output, but rather put out a somewhat nasty sine wave approximation.

Now if your UPS is a double conversion, meaning that the output is always running from the battery, it's probably one of the better models, since many manufacturers use true sine wave technology in their double conversion UPS.

It's usually the cheaper "Standby" UPSs that use the cheap AC inverters. At any rate, if your UPS is a standby type, and you haven't had your UPS kick on when your mixer is in use, it's probably not an issue. Unless of course the problem is with the any voltage rectification being applied by your UPS or the Furman.

But I'm still curious as to the exact model UPS you have. I'd like to look up the specs on it, if you don't mind. I don't know how robust a power supply is used by PreSonus in their units. Possibly a lousy sine wave output could damage one of their power supplies? Or cause the power supply to temporarily go into some weird state?

Here's a thought: have you tried burning them in without the UPS, to see if they would fail without it? For that matter, I'd take the Furman off as well as the UPS, and try a burn in.

Best wishes,

Frank

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 14/11/2012 04:41:09

********************************
StudioLive 24.4.2
Sweetwater CS250 Workstation: Core i5 quad, 3.1 GHz, 4 GB RAM, Win7 x64 SP1
Studio One V2 Professional
********************************
AudioBox 44VSL
Sony Vaio: Core i5 quad, 2.5 GHz, 6 MB RAM, Win7 x64 SP1
Studio One V2 Professional

Dell Latitude: Core 2 Duo, 2.4 GHz, 3.45 GB RAM, WinXP SP3
Studio One V2 Artist
********************************
carcrusher
Prenoob
[Avatar]

Joined: 07/01/2011 22:19:16
Messages: 39
Location: Sanford, NC
Offline

Hey Frank,

Yep. Scary as hell..........
Standing in the center of 2,000 people and it goes "pop"???????????? And won't come back????????????????

I run a mid-size sound company. I CAN NOT have reliability issue's on a show and my reputation suffer like that.

In Presonus' defense, these 2 have been stone reliable for over a year now. Then out of the blue, my audio 9-11.

The TrippLite UPS runs on line voltage until it see's high/low/no voltage. The switching to backup is amazingly fast. There are some cheaper UPS units out there. This one is a Smart 500 1U and it actually does PWM (pulse wave modulation) when the power goes down.
So, instead of a sine-wave, it's a slightly jagged wave. So I guess it's a cheaper version. But it is fast as a ninja.
It scared me at first because when I measured the output on standby mode I measured about 82 volts! Then I realized I needed a RMS voltmeter and it reads 120V on standby with that meter. The consoles never miss a beat when I "pull the plug" on them. They
keep right on mixing away like nothing happened every time I do that to them in testing and in real life.
The UPS is just there pretty much for a gentler shutdown and give me time to get to the amps.
It's happened to me more often than I thought it would. Everything critical to the signal chain in front of the amps is on a UPS.

They impressed me so much, my Midas Pro2's have the 1500vA TrippLite UPS on each of those. That UPS is a heavy sucker..............

Pure sine-wave UPS's are large, VERY heavy, and are pretty much for server banks that can't go down. They are expensive too.........
I can't even FIND a pure sine-wave UPS that I would be willing to move around from gig to gig!

Anyway, yes, they shut down when fed on simple line voltage.

It must be a bug somewhere in the firmware. I don't see anywhere to take the board "down" a firmware version.
Like I said, the factory re-set has had no effect on either board.
I even uninstalled all the UC from the Mac and reinstalled that. No effect.

I'm baffled.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 14/11/2012 05:48:29

[Email] [WWW] [MSN]
talmen
Presonoid
[Avatar]

Joined: 28/07/2010 23:56:13
Messages: 3002
Offline

The Furman shouldn't be doing anything to the power that would have any kind of an ill-effect on things further down the line, but I've never really trusted the stepped-approximation output you get from a cheap inverter -- especially with todays' new-fangled power supplies.
Field Kit:
MacBook Pro 9.2 i5 2.5 GHz, 8GB RAM,
OS 10.8.5;
A & H Qu-16, AB1818VSL, Alesis IO14 / IO26,
PreSonus S1 v2.6.2.25990, Boom Recorder 8.3.2

Studio Kit:
iMac 11.3, i7 (Quad) 2.93GHz, 8 GB RAM,
OS 10.9.3,
M-Audio FW1814, PreSonus Faderport,
PreSonus S1 Pro 2.6.2.25590
lifegatesound
Presonic
[Avatar]

Joined: 15/07/2012 05:49:25
Messages: 184
Offline

Hello Dan:

It doesn't really matter how "fast" your UPS switches. I've never used one that doesn't switch quickly. It's the quality of the stepped down wave output which is in question. It's just too coincidental that the same problem has happened to two mixers, which until now have worked properly.

I'm not clear if you had done a firmware update on both boards prior to this problem first occurring. If not, and they had been running stable on 1.5.3.1 for a long time, this points even more to an outside source to the problem (albeit maybe exacerbated by a design or manufacturing weakness in the PreSonus equipment).

I'm a little confused as to your statement regarding your UPS: "It scared me at first because when I measured the output on standby mode I measured about 82 volts! Then I realized I needed a RMS voltmeter and it reads 120V on standby with that meter".

In standby mode, the UPS should be just passing the line voltage through. You should read the same value that you read when testing the line voltage with the same meter. If not, I'd be worried about the long term effect of feeding a non-optimal waveform to the mixer.

I'm not defending PreSonus here. The mixer should be able to run without damage if you had it hooked up to a generator being powered by someone peddling a bicycle, IMO. But many devices have some sort of Achilles heal, so to speak.

We purchased a large Cyberpower true sine wave, standby UPS. It's overkill, but I'm going to run the entire FOH rack, mixer, and audio workstation from it. They make smaller models that are lighter in weight, for an excellent price.

Best wishes,

Frank

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 14/11/2012 16:13:58

********************************
StudioLive 24.4.2
Sweetwater CS250 Workstation: Core i5 quad, 3.1 GHz, 4 GB RAM, Win7 x64 SP1
Studio One V2 Professional
********************************
AudioBox 44VSL
Sony Vaio: Core i5 quad, 2.5 GHz, 6 MB RAM, Win7 x64 SP1
Studio One V2 Professional

Dell Latitude: Core 2 Duo, 2.4 GHz, 3.45 GB RAM, WinXP SP3
Studio One V2 Artist
********************************
lifegatesound
Presonic
[Avatar]

Joined: 15/07/2012 05:49:25
Messages: 184
Offline

Hello Dan:

I was thinking more about the comment that you made, regarding the Tripplite only reading 82 volts on a non-true RMS meter, when in standby:
carcrusher wrote:..............
It scared me at first because when I measured the output on standby mode I measured about 82 volts! Then I realized I needed a RMS voltmeter and it reads 120V on standby with that meter. The consoles never miss a beat when I "pull the plug" on them. They
keep right on mixing away like nothing happened every time I do that to them in testing and in real life.
The UPS is just there pretty much for a gentler shutdown and give me time to get to the amps.
It's happened to me more often than I thought it would. Everything critical to the signal chain in front of the amps is on a UPS................

This seems counterintuitive to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your comment. But to my understanding "standby" is when the UPS is not running off its batteries, but rather is just passing through the line AC, albeit with possibly some filtering, and/or voltage regulation.

Anyway, assuming that your line voltage is within the range allowed by the UPS, and assuming that the UPS is indeed a "Standby" type UPS, and not a "Double Conversion" UPS, then the output voltage in Standby mode should just basically be a pass-through of the existing line voltage.

That being the case, you should have been able to read 120v AC in Standby mode with just a cheap garden variety, non-RMS type volt meter.

I ran an experiment this morning, using a very old (probably 25 years or more) Radio Shack "Micronta" model 22-185 DMM. I plugged it into our Cyberpower PR1500LCDRT2U true sine wave, standby UPS.

With the UPS running on AC power (in Standby mode), I measured 120v AC. Leaving the meter plugged into the UPS, I unplugged the UPS. With the UPS then outputting inversion produced AC, I still read 120v AC with my cheapo Radio Shack DMM.

I would expect that with the Tripplite, in Standby mode, with a non-RMS meter, you should read 120v. And when running off the battery, you would read something considerably different.

If however, in Standby mode you are reading a value considerably different that 120v AC, that would mean that the UPS is always putting out stepped-wave AC. Possibly the PreSonus power supplies do not like this. Personally, I wouldn't even trust such an AC wave for the brief times that I'd be running in battery mode.

Best wishes,

Frank
********************************
StudioLive 24.4.2
Sweetwater CS250 Workstation: Core i5 quad, 3.1 GHz, 4 GB RAM, Win7 x64 SP1
Studio One V2 Professional
********************************
AudioBox 44VSL
Sony Vaio: Core i5 quad, 2.5 GHz, 6 MB RAM, Win7 x64 SP1
Studio One V2 Professional

Dell Latitude: Core 2 Duo, 2.4 GHz, 3.45 GB RAM, WinXP SP3
Studio One V2 Artist
********************************
rockstardave
Presonic
[Avatar]

Joined: 29/07/2010 01:02:17
Messages: 322
Location: buffalo ny
Offline

guys.

this should not be turned into a thread about power conditioning.

THE STUDIOLIVE SHOULD WORK NO MATTER HOW IT'S PLUGGED IN.

i'll give the typical slack - very low power, bad power, saggy voltages - these should not be a problem.

but when the board is plugged into "usable" power, IT SHOULD WORK !!

presonus is starting to upset a lot of people. i work at a music shop and we used to sell a ton of these mixers. nowadays people are freaked out by all the crashes, DOA units, and repair procedures. frankly, i wouldn't be surprised if the X32 became the new king of inexpensive digital.
2xSL16 , KW-series , Macbook pro / ipad , fairly decent mics and DI boxes.
[WWW]
carcrusher
Prenoob
[Avatar]

Joined: 07/01/2011 22:19:16
Messages: 39
Location: Sanford, NC
Offline

These 2 have had a regal life.
Great case, smooth 117 volts at all times, handled with care, stored in a climate controlled warehouse.

The first "episode" the newer SL24 died with:
no computer connected
1.5.3.2 firmware
a phone with Slacker Radio playing setup muzak thru it
this is after running faultlessly for about 8 months

The second "episode" was my other SL24 with:
no computer connected
1.5.3.2 firmware
A comedian on a wireless
this is after running faultlessly for about 18 months
it popped and we reset it with an off/on. Passed audio for 5 minutes and froze again.

The third "episode" was this same SL24 with:
1.6 firmware and factory reset
MacBook Pro and iPad running UC
a 24 hour glitch free burn-in
a band and vocal act onstage with 8 mon auxes
popped/froze, off/on, still does not pass audio.

The fourth "episode(s)" was the newer SL24 with:
1.6 firmware and factory reset
MacBook Pro and iPad running UC
every hour (almost) it ran with a iPad running 2 channels into it it would "pop-freeze". Did that 3x.
Then, no music, nothing, sitting there idling all channels muted, it popped/froze! WTF? No audio and it freezes?

It really does not seem to matter what the load is, it will just
randomly freeze and maybe pass audio on reset, maybe not.
My guys refuse to take these out anymore. I'm on hold for an hour now to support to get an RA #
since the online thing was just confusing as herding feral cats!
Now I've left a VOX message and they'll get back to me. Humph!

YES, bottom line is, no matter what firmware it's running, it can NOT go down during a show.
Or anytime just at random. Where would Midas be with that kind of track record
There are no DNF's in audio what-so-ever! In my analog days (36 years) I can only remember and A&H
2200 having bad solder joints on the summing board and one channel quitting on me.
I've not heard of a Yamaha, Midas, A&H, or AVID product just passing out at random on a show.
I wiggled the XLR jack and that came back.................

If this is a firmware issue, it's a big one for me.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 14/11/2012 20:41:06

[Email] [WWW] [MSN]
Monolithent
Supreme Baconator
[Avatar]
Joined: 28/07/2010 18:47:25
Messages: 13464
Location: Central New Jersey
Offline

Dan,

I don't think I still have it but can you shoot me a PM with your number? I will have them call you if they haven't already done so.

Also, if you have a tech support ticket number that would be handy as well.
http://support.presonus.com

Tallest guy in the Mod Squad with all his hair still on his head.

No I'm not a freaking pilot!! The Air Force won't let me have a suit with a zipper...or sometimes shoestrings.

My advice and suggestions should never be considered advice or suggestions. These are mostly insane ramblings of a poor aircraft mechanic who can, strangely enough, still hear.

StudioLive 16.4.2, AudioBox 1818VSL, AudioBox 44VSL, Faderport, Digimax FS,, M-Audio Firewire 410
--MultiBoot System--
Win Vista 64/XP Pro/7 x86/7 x64 - Mac OSX Snow Leopard/Lion
Gigabyte motherboard--SYBA TI Firewire XIO2200A--i7 2600k Quad Core--16 GB DDR III--Custom 2U Rackmount--4 TB Raid (all internal SATA II)--19" Samsung HDMI LCD on pivoting VESA 1U Mount
Studio One v1 Pro x64
Studio One v1 Artist
Studio One v2 Artist
[Yahoo!]
 
Forum Index » Live Sound
Go to: