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Long Post - Who is the target user base for Studio One?
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Deltones
Presonic

Joined: 08/07/2012 22:38:35
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I won't lie gentlemen, getting acquainted with Studio One these past few days has been a pretty frustrating experience in three specific areas: Recording, Editing and Comping. Finding out that:

1) You can record takes only with the Loop Button engaged
2) The layers are frozen and you can't do squat with them as far as editing goes
3) There is no scrub function in Studio One. In 2012.
4) You can't control the cursor precisely with the keyboard, only the mouse.
5) You basically have to explode your takes to new tracks to comp and/or edit in a somewhat organized manner. If you're working with a specific track template, it just creates a mess of extra tracks as well as destroying your template workflow.
6) You have to put an audio event in a container before you can slip edit.

There are other things, but I'll only list these for now.

There is one guy here, themusik, who did a very well done, very well explained video where he demonstrates his comp process as well as recording takes with the Loop button engaged. The video was made in V1 but I believe the results are the same in V2 i.e

1) A visual mess of extra tracks and extra mouse clicks in the Arrange View when comping/editing
2) A potential Syd Barrett-ification of the talent having to record non-stop because of the way takes have to be recorded with Loop engaged.

In themusik's video, he demonstrates the recording process for takes just by counting or speaking words here and there, at random. Which is all well and good for a demonstration's purpose. But I sure would like to see the same process of recording takes in a loop when a singer is really giving his all.

Take note that the above comments have nothing to do with themusik. As I said, the guy has a talent for giving clear explanations. I'm talking about the actions taken to get the results he got. Oh yeah, for reference, here's the video:



So that brings me to the main question: Who is the target user base for Studio One?

1) Someone who is mainly mixing tracks that were recorded and edited in another DAW?
2) Someone who used to work with tape and has just transfered a similar workflow to S1, minus the razor blade?
3) Someone who is lucky enough to be able to record awesome bands who nail everything the first take and who require zero or minimum editing?
4) Someone who is mostly working with synth plugins, midi and drum loops?

Maybe it's because I haven't found the right way yet, but I have some difficulties thinking that you can record, edit and comp efficiently in S1 as it stands today without creating a mess of tracks everywhere and getting RSI because of extra click you need to do to get results. Now excuse me, I've got to be careful with that axe, Eugene.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 15/07/2012 20:33:22

Computer: Gigabyte MB, I7, 16 gig RAM, Radeon HD 6550
OS: Windows 7 x64
Sound Interface: Orion32
DAW: Studio One 2.6.2 x64
FyLe ForMatz
Presonic
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Joined: 11/10/2010 22:48:16
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Deltones wrote:I won't lie gentlemen, getting acquainted with Studio One these past few days has been a pretty frustrating experience in three specific areas: Recording, Editing and Comping. Finding out that:

1) You can record takes only with the Loop Button engaged
2) The layers are frozen and you can't do squat with them as far as editing goes
3) There is no scrub function in Studio One. In 2012.
4) You can't control the cursor precisely with the keyboard, only the mouse.
5) You basically have to explode your takes to new tracks to comp and/or edit in a somewhat organized manner. If you're working with a specific track template, it just creates a mess of extra tracks as well as destroying your template workflow.
6) You have to put an audio event in a container before you can slip edit.

There are other things, but I'll only list these for now


if i were you, i wouldn't even waste any more time and just SWITCH platforms...go back to whatever you WERE using and stick with that.

every DAW ain't for EVERYbody.

$.02

i felt the same way about Pro Tools and Logic...same thing with Reason.

with a list like that, it's time to BOUNCE...i mean, if you consider your time valuable.
http://soundcloud.com/fyle-formatz
5Lives
Presonic

Joined: 22/10/2011 05:15:49
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I agree with a lot of your frustrations, but remember that S1 is just in its second version. The developers I imagine know about these issues and have historically been very good at responding to them. I feel S1 has made more progress in the short time it has been around than any other DAW.

I think Presonus certainly aspires to have S1 be a replacement for other linear DAWs (PT, Logic, Cubase, etc.) - at least their marketing would indicate that. However, it isn't as mature as those other DAWs yet - keep in mind though that while it may be missing certain features, the other DAWs are missing a lot of the great features and workflow from S1 as well.

Owning PT10 and Ableton Live myself, I'm still trying to work out my workflow. Each one has things the others don't that I find very useful, so right now, I'm jumping between all of them.
Studio One v2.5 Professional - Mac Pro - OS X 10.7
Deltones
Presonic

Joined: 08/07/2012 22:38:35
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FyLe ForMatz wrote:
if i were you, i wouldn't even waste any more time and just SWITCH platforms...go back to whatever you WERE using and stick with that.

every DAW ain't for EVERYbody.

$.02

i felt the same way about Pro Tools and Logic...same thing with Reason.

with a list like that, it's time to BOUNCE...i mean, if you consider your time valuable.


The thing, this is always the easy answer i.e switch if you don't like it. The world is not always binary. There are things that are done in S1 that are absolutely great. The drag'n'drop implementation in S1 is a nice time saver, the way you setup multi-outputs plugins like Addictive Drums or Superior Drummer is a lot simpler than in Reaper, the browser is nice to work with, etc, etc. These are all great things to find and appreciate in S1.

But recording, editing and comping is meat and potato stuff that are somewhat lacking in S1 when I expected them to be top notch. My personnal opinion of course. Although I will say that double-clicking on an audio event and having it open in the edit window is a very good foundation that will reach its full potential when the editing workflow with layers, lanes or whatever method is used in future updates is perfected.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 15/07/2012 22:42:00

Computer: Gigabyte MB, I7, 16 gig RAM, Radeon HD 6550
OS: Windows 7 x64
Sound Interface: Orion32
DAW: Studio One 2.6.2 x64
Deltones
Presonic

Joined: 08/07/2012 22:38:35
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5Lives wrote:I'm still trying to work out my workflow.


Yeah, this is really the crux of the matter. Right now, I'm trying to find workarounds with the current limitations. When I think that I found something that may work, as in the recording takes aspect, I find other inconsistencies in behaviours (like selecting) that crashes me back to the ground. But you're right, still a young DAW and hopefully, more issues will be resolved in the future. Hopefully before V3

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 15/07/2012 22:49:29

Computer: Gigabyte MB, I7, 16 gig RAM, Radeon HD 6550
OS: Windows 7 x64
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DAW: Studio One 2.6.2 x64
PenguiN42
Presonic

Joined: 15/01/2011 20:25:20
Messages: 104
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You don't have to use loop record to use comping. Try this:

- Record your first take.
- Rewind, right click on all the tracks and go "Layers->Add Layer"
- Poof! A new blank layer to record a new track on, without messing up your template.
- Record subsequent takes following the steps above.
- Right click on your tracks and go "Expand Layers" and comp to your heart's content.

You can also manually re-organize what's in the layers like this. I almost never use the loops->takes function.

Since your whole comment seemed to be based on this incorrect assumption (that you *have* to use loops->takes, and that it creates "extra tracks" -- which btw it doesn't if you have record takes to layers turned on) then I'm going to just ignore the rest of it.

Now maybe this still uses too many mouse clicks for you. Well, you can bind "Add layer" and "Expand layers" and so on to keys if you like. I happen to like the mouse
Deltones
Presonic

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PenguiN42 wrote:You don't have to use loop record to use comping. Try this:

- Right click on your tracks and go "Expand Layers" and comp to your heart's content.



Yeah, I tried all methods I could think of for recording takes withing the confines of a single track. The layer was promising, but the freezing of the audio item within the layer killed that method for me. Already discussed in other threads so I know that this is something that annoys other users as well. We'll see how the update cycle goes.
Computer: Gigabyte MB, I7, 16 gig RAM, Radeon HD 6550
OS: Windows 7 x64
Sound Interface: Orion32
DAW: Studio One 2.6.2 x64
PenguiN42
Presonic

Joined: 15/01/2011 20:25:20
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Deltones wrote:
PenguiN42 wrote:You don't have to use loop record to use comping. Try this:

- Right click on your tracks and go "Expand Layers" and comp to your heart's content.



Yeah, I tried all methods I could think of for recording takes withing the confines of a single track. The layer was promising, but the freezing of the audio item within the layer killed that method for me. Already discussed in other threads so I know that this is something that annoys other users as well. We'll see how the update cycle goes.


Well considering Layers were the feature introduced in V2 to do exactly what you're asking about, I'm confused as to what's not working for you. What does "freezing of the audio item within the layer" mean?

Edit: If you mean you can't edit audio in a non-active layer, then I agree that's a limitation. But it's not hard to work around (just activate the layer temporarily while you work on it), and the built-in double-click comping thing covers 90% of my editing tasks anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 15/07/2012 23:04:26

Deltones
Presonic

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PenguiN42 wrote:
Well considering Layers were the feature introduced in V2 to do exactly what you're asking about, I'm confused as to what's not working for you. What does "freezing of the audio item within the layer" mean?


It means that you can't move, edit or do anything with the audio event as it is locked in the layer unless you promote it to the main track. That just cause needless back and forth between layer and main track if you want to edit or slip edit the audio event for example.
Computer: Gigabyte MB, I7, 16 gig RAM, Radeon HD 6550
OS: Windows 7 x64
Sound Interface: Orion32
DAW: Studio One 2.6.2 x64
Wilkesin
Presonic
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Joined: 15/11/2011 17:00:44
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I've been crying about the layer behavior since I joined here, but mainly just the part about being in loop record and having to record continuously to have new layers automatically created.

Im not sure why everyone is so mad about not being able to move the audio parts on a layer. That seems the way it should be to me. The reason to use those is just to get the best take or phrase of a certain part. Not to do all your editing. If you started editing and slipping every layer it seems like it would take forever and you would be doing a lot of editing to things that you might not even use.

Locking the layer in place seems smart to me. Get the performance you want. Promote it. Then edit it. The rest of it needs attention for sure though.

Different strokes...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 16/07/2012 02:49:10

http://wilkesin.bandcamp.com
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Deltones
Presonic

Joined: 08/07/2012 22:38:35
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Wilkesin wrote:I've been crying about the layer behavior since I joined here, but mainly just the part about being in loop record and having to record continuously to have new layers automatically created.

Im not sure why everyone is so mad about not being able to move the audio parts on a layer. That seems the way it should be to me. The reason to use those is just to get the best take or phrase of a certain part. Not to do all your editing. If you started editing and slipping every layer it seems like it would take forever and you would be doing a lot of editing to things that you might not even use.

Locking the layer in place seems smart to me. Get the performance you want. Promote it. Then edit it. The rest of it needs attention for sure though.

Different strokes...


I could work with the items being locked in place in the layer, as long as I could edit / slip edit them in place, i.e without having to promote them to the main track all the time. As you say, different strokes, but to me, that's a lot of shuffling around of items. We'll see how Presonus addresses the situation of course. Thanks for your input.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 16/07/2012 03:22:22

Computer: Gigabyte MB, I7, 16 gig RAM, Radeon HD 6550
OS: Windows 7 x64
Sound Interface: Orion32
DAW: Studio One 2.6.2 x64
mech2161
Presonic
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Joined: 11/06/2012 17:51:02
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IMO S-ONE in the present form is geared more to the live user. Sad to say but having three different daws for me isn't a bad thing. I use S-One for live shows. I like recording with Ableton and prefer to edit and mix in Pro-Tools. I haven't seen anything out there that does it all well.
Kevin
Deltones
Presonic

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mech2161 wrote:IMO S-ONE in the present form is geared more to the live user. Sad to say but having three different daws for me isn't a bad thing. I use S-One for live shows. I like recording with Ableton and prefer to edit and mix in Pro-Tools. I haven't seen anything out there that does it all well.


Yeah, live users would be a good match since you usually do one take, although I recall one member here who used it live at one point and he found something in the workflow that bugged him. Might have been something about S1 over-reliance on the mouse instead of the keyboard for some tasks.
Computer: Gigabyte MB, I7, 16 gig RAM, Radeon HD 6550
OS: Windows 7 x64
Sound Interface: Orion32
DAW: Studio One 2.6.2 x64
runejensen
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Joined: 14/07/2012 20:21:31
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I always find this type of discussion kind of strange. I realize that users might have a fixed workflow when coming from a different DAW, but to say that S1 audio editing is lacking would be a strange statement. It simply requires the user to tweak his/her workflow. Just because you are used to having multiple takes on top of each other when recording it doesn't mean that is the only solution. As another user mentions, it takes 1 keystroke to create a new layer. In doing so you avoid all the clutter with multiple takes on top of each other like you see in some DAW's.

Personally, I find S1 editing far superior to editing in Logic, on par with PT, and close to Cubase (but less cluttered and 'smarter'). I also find S1 superior to the mentioned DAW's in terms of editing that requires pitch changes, time stretching, pitch correction, and certainly region specific plugins.

It is not perfect, but I find it to be on par with other DAW's on the market in terms of pure audio editing.

Just my cents for the record:

1. Incorrect. Requires 1 keystroke to add layer. Less clutter, especially when doing punch-ins etc.
2. You are not supposed to. As soon as the section of the layer is selected, you edit it up top. Same for other DAW's(eg. Logic). Not a limitation, just a different way of doing it. If you start editing in the layer, in the active track, + add comps from layers...it is a mess.
3. Agreed, though I never use scrubbing.
4. Workflow. I use keystrokes in Logic, mouse in S1. Both are fine. Just different ways of working.
5. Absolutely not. Use the layers function correctly and this is not even close to being an issue. Stop focusing on how you used to do it, and start focusing on how it is done in S1.
6. What? Do you mean slip edit, as in move audio freely? You can always do that.
FyLe ForMatz
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Wilkesin wrote:
Locking the layer in place seems smart to me. Get the performance you want. Promote it. Then edit it.


agreed.
http://soundcloud.com/fyle-formatz
 
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