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S1 - 3 days without Nuendo and Avid MC Pro - conclusions
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dogcatstudios
Presonic
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Joined: 03/05/2011 08:55:11
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I have decided to give S1 a second chance and I unplugged my Avid MC Pro control surface, and switched to a keyboard, a very good mouse for gamers and Maschine as a MIDI controller for knobs etc. Three days with S1 only. Here are the conclusions:

General conclusion: I love so many things about S1 - the looks, one window workflow, track list, track conversion, Melodyne integration, the browser... I could go on and on. And the sound - virtual instruments sound phenomenal.

Unfortunately, these 3 days reminded me why I bought the control surface with integrated keyboard and trackball. I was working with S1 for 10 hours a day and my right hand started to hurt - it seems that there is too much mousing required. For example, I love the search button in the browser but to access this function I have to click a tiny icon in the corner (no keyboard shortcut) - I made a macro to automate it but still the keyboard shortcut for such a useful function is a must. If you want to add a plugin, you have to click - why no shortcut that opens the list the same as clicking the plus button in the mixer. If you want to add a VI, you have to click. If you want to access plugs for the instrument track, you have to click. I love drag-and-drop but very often this technique is not as fast and user friendly as shortcuts. It may be intuitive when you learn the new software but once you have mastered it, you crave for faster solutions - keyboard shortcuts or a proper control surface support.

Now I come to the thing I absolutely hate - the support of MIDI assigned knobs in S1. I used the Maschine template developed by Presonus and after ten minutes I realized the knobs were useless. Why? Every time I opened a new plugin and touched the knob, the value jumped and changed. WTF? For example, I assigned a knob to a high pass filter in a EQ - every time I switched to a different channel with the same plugin and touched the knob, the the previously set value disappeared because it jumped to something else. That is a huge issue for me. So I used my mouse for all plugin and VI parameters. Lots of clicking and dragging. My hand started to hurt first time after 3 years. I can't work like that. Most of the features I need are there and honestly now I can't imagine living without small and big innovations in S1. But my hand tells me to stay off S1. But that is just me and my poor hand.

I don't want to be a killsport - there is so little to make S1 ready for long working sessions - make it more keyboard friendly and euconize it. Presonus - I hope you are listening. I admire your fresh approach but there is no way I will dump my control surface for the one you are working on. This is probably true also for the users of the ArtistSeries. I work with different DAWs and being limited to one particular platform is a huge drawback. That is what EUCON is all about - multi DAW, multi computer and multi platform. Every major DAW offers EUCON support. I am ready to shell out even for a separate EUCON adapter for S1 (the same I did for Nuendo). I know that Avid will not allow you to use Eucon in your control surface - that makes sense from their business perspective - but it doesn't mean you shouldn't implement Eucon in your software.

Another show stopper is the lack of video support for S1 64-bit (I know it is Apple's fault - but Steinberg managed to solve it somehow). It means I can't score to picture the way I am used to - huge template with ready to use instrument tracks. Of course I can use VSL VE but I don't want to struggle with different workflow layers.

Also I really think that mixer channels should take names of instrument tracks in arrange view. It is such a pain to name things twice when there is no need to do it. I think Presonus should take into consideration the fact that computers are getting more and more powerful. Event today I can run more than 200 separate Kontakt instruments. I prefer this way of working than assigning multiple midi channels to instrument outs the mixer. Why - you don't have to look for the proper channel in the mixer - the Show in the console command navigates only to the first VI output. One track one output works much faster. Just a key press and you are there.


So I am back to Nuendo until full Eucon support. But S1 will reside on my Macbook Air and make a great portable DAW with Apogee Duet II. But I will keep the great visual style REASON ONE has made for Windows 7 (look for it in the forum).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 09/11/2011 16:02:29

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scottharrell
Presonic
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Joined: 16/04/2009 15:19:21
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FYI the Machine script is being updated for bi-directional which will sync them to the plug-ins. This works already for user created control layouts and other control scripts.
just some dude that hangs out at presonus
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MR4Y
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Joined: 23/10/2011 08:44:32
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I don't get this silly obssession with some people and companies to ditch the mouse...
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Gizzmo0815
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Joined: 28/07/2010 21:18:43
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The OP must have a wrist injury from overuse on a bad computer setup or something. There's no reason why using a mouse should make your hands hurt like that. On a proper surface with good support a mouse is harmless.

And I'm sorry but shortcuts are great sometimes, but there's a reason that the mouse was invented. It's a more natural way to interface with the computer. And keyboard shortcuts being faster is mostly an illusion. Studies show pretty conclusively that for most tasks, the mouse is quicker. Try it out sometime, you'll be surprised.

The Eucon is great, but it isn't the end all be all, and not many people have them. It's not surprising that it's not always the first interface to be supported by a company. Especially given that Studio One is still pretty new on the market. There are many hundreds of interfaces and controllers to support. The Eucon is probably low on the list.
Computer: Lenovo y560, 2.0 GHz quad core, 8 gb RAM, Win 7 (x64)
Presonus "Stuff": Studio One Pro, Presonus Firestudio Mobile, Studiolive 16.0.2, Faderport
levi.moneyhun
Prenoob
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Joined: 28/07/2010 16:21:26
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For me, controller support isn't very important. I use my mouse and keyboard for all of my work. While I understand that this workflow may not work for everyone, it works for me. In my opinion, controllers (usually, not always) merely help create an environment more like a hardware workstation--a setup that doesn't appeal to me. If it appeals to you, then that's fine. Just my opinion. (gotta have the smily so I don't sound like a jerk)
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themuzic
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Joined: 17/04/2010 05:42:47
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That's ok, I'll be the jerk...lol

Sorry guys, I have to side with the OP!! Don't give him crap over a wrist issue. Millions of people have them and rely on controllers and keyboard shortcuts to get by.

Since we have developers that worked at Steinberg, this blissful ignorance over controllers is the single most baffling downside of Studio One that exists. Only 2 mixer\control surfaces (non-keyboard) work fully in Studio One.

The Faderport (which is PERFECT) and the Behringer BCF2000 (which actually only works fully in Mackie MCU mode).

Why? Give me one good reason WHY???? If Presonus gets the controller availability that Cubase has, 100 new users will buy Studio One that day. I can personally guarantee 20 of them, as they are users I know, that are watching Studio one.

Everyone here knows that I am one of the biggest FAN-BOYs of Studio One (maybe the biggest ). My entire Studio is Presonus based as is my Youtube site and I have now either built, and assisted in building, almost 75 Studio One machines, not only here at home, but for many here on the forum.

Give me one good reason why the controller support in Studio One is so poor? Just one good reason and I'll never bring it up again?

....and building their own doesn't float with me either. The Faderport is available for almost any DAW. Why can't this DAW be available for any contoller?

I have even gotten into some pretty massive tiffs over at the Avid forums when people say that Studio One could NEVER hold up against Pro Tools, which we all here know, is BS.

Why?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 10/11/2011 08:49:18


http://www.homestudiotrainer.webs.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/themuzic
Email - homestudiotrainer@yahoo.com
Skype - themuzic
Phone - 773-303-7260
I offer FREE assistance for Studio One (any version) and Presonus hardware, to anyone having issues or anyone who simply wants to learn

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dogcatstudios
Presonic
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Joined: 03/05/2011 08:55:11
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Yes, I have a RSI despite I have always paid a lot of attention to ergonomics from day one (it means some 25 years of using a computer for 10 hours a day). I wrote that it is just my hand. Yours can be more resistant. Mouse overclicking causes RSI - mouse is not harmless. There are lots of people who suffer from mouse-induced RSI. The more you click, the greater probability. Ergonomic devices help but don't eliminate the problem.

Now, the mouse. Apple's researchers claim that the mouse is faster and more creative. But despite big bucks spent on research they are yet to produce a mouse that is usable. I like OSX and iOS very much. But they are made with general users in minds, not so called power users. I have two keyboards by Fingerworks - the company was acquired by Apple for their gesture technology that is now used in iOS devices. Fingerwork products offered hundreds of super customizable gestures. Apple's implementation of this technology is very limited at the moment with just a handful of gestures - but the target group is different. 99% of users don't needs 300 gestures. I like OSX for casual activities like photo editing, web browsing etc. but I prefer Windows for real work - better file management, proper multi display support with 3rd party apps, advanced marco tools (I am still to find a file manager comparable to Total Commander or Speed Commander on OSX - and I have them all) - but that is preferential and not related to the topic.

Nobody is talking about using keyboard only. Most of us use a dual input interaction with the computer - especially with DAW - one hand on a keyboard, the other on a mouse. We don't need multimillion dollar research to figure out what is faster - to press space to activate playback, or use your mouse to click the transport button. Do you have to think while pressing the space key? What is faster - to access the search button in the browser with your mouse and then look for a plugin and locate it with your mouse or press Ctrl+B and type the first letter of the plugin you are looking for. Think also about pro-gamers and their use of keyboard - they use mouse only as a pointing device. All commands are triggered from the keyboard. But of course speed it is not the end - especially in music creation. But most professionals (graphic people, video editors etc) depend heavily on shortcuts. And most people who are casual users use mainly mouse. There have to be some reasons behind it, right?

My aim was not to rant about mouse oriented workflow - I just simply would like S1 to be more keyboard shortcut friendly - I'd like to see a shortcut for the browser button, more then 5 scenes available for shortcuts (working with 100s of tracks 5 is not enough), a way to add a VI with a keyboard etc etc. I guess it is not impossible and the devs can take this in consideration.

Anyway, S1 v2 is a great product, no doubt.

www.artsunmuted.com - Lemurized control surfaces for leading sound libraries including ProjectSAM Symphobia and Audiiobro LASS
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CubaseUser
Presonic
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Joined: 30/08/2010 23:13:52
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I have to agree with TheMuzic and the OP, control surface support is quite weak in S1. Surely they can adapt existing templates from other DAWs to work with S1, I guess the problem lies with getting hold of the actual hardware.
Keyboard shortcuts do speed up my workflow to a certain extent and i fully agree that a shortcut for the browser search would save a bit of time. Also why isn't there a search facility from the drop down menu from the Inserts and Sends selectors just above the faders? The browser has the search, so should the dedicated inserts and sends
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dogcatstudios
Presonic
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Thanks themuzic. Good to know I am not alone.
www.artsunmuted.com - Lemurized control surfaces for leading sound libraries including ProjectSAM Symphobia and Audiiobro LASS
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themuzic
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dogcatstudios wrote:Thanks themuzic. Good to know I am not alone.


Not by a long shot. Unfortunately, my maniacal rants about the controller has strained my relations with some Presonus personnel but it is a sore spot with me at times.

Now, one thing that has gotten me through some really tough mixes is the Faderport. This little controller is really a life saver and the only thing that has gotten me through this controller issue. I bought it originally for Cubase (pre S1 days) as a controller to have by my drum kit when I was doing drum tracks by myself.

With the Faderport on my left (for transport, fader and jog wheel) the keyboard in the middle (for my shortcuts) and my mouse on the right (for all the drag and drop) this is a wonderful setup for most of my mixing.

Now I have my Mackie Baby HUI for my multi-fader needs but it's limited for controlling plugins.

http://www.homestudiotrainer.webs.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/themuzic
Email - homestudiotrainer@yahoo.com
Skype - themuzic
Phone - 773-303-7260
I offer FREE assistance for Studio One (any version) and Presonus hardware, to anyone having issues or anyone who simply wants to learn

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reede
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Joined: 10/11/2011 09:50:24
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Huge . I'm demoing S1 at the moment with thoughts to switch from Logic Pro. I really like a lot what I see, but practically nonexistant support for control surfaces is the biggest issue what's holding me back at the moment. I love both my Avid Artist Mix and iPad with TouchOSC and regardless how good S1 with mouse and keyboard is (and there is a room for improvement), I just can't throw my controllers away.
CubaseUser
Presonic
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I think this issue could be a deal breaker for a lot of potential daw migrants
here's just a few surfaces that I know of with no templates
M Audio Project Mix
Euphonix MCMIX
Alesis Master Control
Tascam fw1884 & 1082
Ssl nucleus
Intel Dual Core 4300
4 gig ram
Asus P4B E
Novation Nocturn
M Audio Keystation Pro 88
Tascam FW1884
KRK Rokit RP 10 3
Roland TD4
two 19" TFT monitors
MR4Y
Presonoid

Joined: 23/10/2011 08:44:32
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I not disagree with the OP or Johnny. Problem here is there's no controller that can replace what a mouse can do. No touchpad or trackball is that precise. Even touchscreen controllers sometimes are less precise than a mouse.

Of course, the dragging thing can drive people nuts, but that's why companies invented mouses with higher resolutions, to reduce the amount of space your hand has to move in order to do tasks.
HP G42 | AMD Athlon II P340 | 2Gb RAM | HD 320 Gb | Windows 7 Home Basic x64
Presonus Studio One Artist 2.0.4 x86 | MAGIX Samplitude Silver Soundcloud Edition
Line 6 POD XT Live

How can anyone call something so divisive a community?
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themuzic
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CubaseUser wrote:I think this issue could be a deal breaker for a lot of potential daw migrants
here's just a few surfaces that I know of with no templates
M Audio Project Mix
Euphonix MCMIX
Alesis Master Control
Tascam fw1884 & 1082
Ssl nucleus


Yeah, the story always is, "Use the HUI Protocol" WRONG!! Sorry, that alone is half assed at best, for most controllers. Like I said, the BCF2000, is by far the best implemented with using the MCU template but it has no touch faders and the faders sound like 20 mice playing maracas.

They need to look at the most popular controllers and start moving. Steinberg came out with some pretty cool controllers but they still support most everything else.

I'd better stop otherwise I'll find all my videos taken off the new site

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 10/11/2011 12:47:38


http://www.homestudiotrainer.webs.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/themuzic
Email - homestudiotrainer@yahoo.com
Skype - themuzic
Phone - 773-303-7260
I offer FREE assistance for Studio One (any version) and Presonus hardware, to anyone having issues or anyone who simply wants to learn

Gateway Tower - Intel Core i5 3330 CPU 3GHz 8GB Ram and 64bit Windows 8
[Email] [WWW] [Yahoo!]
eike
Preamp
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Joined: 16/04/2009 10:27:02
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themuzic wrote:
Yeah, the story always is, "Use the HUI Protocol" WRONG!! Sorry, that alone is half assed at best, for most controllers. Like I said, the BCF2000, is by far the best implemented with using the MCU template but it has no touch faders and the faders sound like 20 mice playing maracas.

as i see it the hui protocol is the ONLY standardized protocol (plz don't start with euCon). and not only is our implementation half assed, but the protocol is as well (that's why there is euCon). This is a huge task to solve, and i can assure you, i share the pain. I'm ok with the maschine controller and my mapping for it (which does a lot more than the one included in S1 at the moment, but is not yet finished), but there is still a lot missing there, stuff that simply can't be done either with S1 or with MIDI based communication. So this is something that will be solved, but it does take time.


They need to look at the most popular controllers and start moving. Steinberg came out with some pretty cool controllers but they still support most everything else.

the new ones (looking cool, but, wait, no faders? need usb-hubs?)
or the cc121 (which really solves one of the problems in remoting daws)

I'd better stop otherwise I'll find all my videos taken off the new site

why now? what i like most about our "fanboys" is that most are still open for criticism and do not behave as if it's "thou shall not have any DAW beside mine".
 
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