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Drummer calls it quits!
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Big Joe Daddy
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Joined: 30/07/2010 01:24:03
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Peary Forrest wrote:
Hey Big Joe, I don't have any real experience with in ears but from your other emails it seems like the drummer moving on will be better for you in the long run. You were having to spend to much time, money, and energy trying to make him happy and I'd venture to say you never would have made him happy.

Better luck with the next one!

Peary

Thanks Peary,
I think you're right. Occasionally I'm told I can be tough to work with because I'm persistent and driven. I just like to get things right and I'll work hard to do so. Not everyone shares my work ethic, and that's OK. I think I've resigned myself to the idea that if I want to get a top-notch PA system together, I'll have to do the work myself and not depend on the other musicians in any way.

I put out a few calls today and I've got a new drummer sittin' in for the first time tomorrow night. Onward and upward! No compromises.
Thanks for your vote of support.
BJD
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Big Joe Daddy
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Jerryd wrote:Big Joe -- Just got a glimpse of your system. It SHOULD sound good right out of the shoot. Well -- is there anyway you can just give the drummer a wedge? That is what he wants. Honestly, I don't use in-ears myself. I was a fill in for a band a while back and everything was sequenced and on a click track. I HAD to wear them (if I didn't want to screw up) and I actually liked them. Yeah it removed me from the LIVE feel of it but I knew the show was right on track and the tempo was dead on.

As a sound guy -- we like the stage volume to be at a minimum. So IN -Ears are awesome for that. It makes the PA sound so much cleaner because it isn't being contaminated by a "BEAMY" stack of amps. You can't EQ the beam of an amp from the FOH. So as a musician -- I like everything on stage to be truly live BUT as a sound guy -- I like bands that use in ears. I also prefer Beta 58's for FOH vocals BUT then prefer 58's for monitors. I guess you can't have it all.

Is everybody else happy with all the hard work you are doing or do they feel the same way the drummer does? Find that out so you know what way to take this. If you go with wedges to get back into a more live feel then we can talk more about tuning up your system.

Thanks Dr J,
Reading through this thread has me re-thinking the issue of wedges. Let me give you a little history on how I got to this point. About 3 months ago I stumbled across some info on the web about the StudioLive and I simply couldn't find a single bit of bad press on it. So I decided to take a gamble and bought one sight unseen. I can't remember the last time I was so pleased with a purchase. The SL opened up a whole new list of possibilities and instantly improved the sound quality to the point I sold a bunch of the pieces of my old PA that became unnecessary with the addition of the SL.

Soon after I stumbled across this forum and instantly became a fan. Guys like you, willing to share years of experience and expertise, fueled my desire to overhaul my PA system and build the best system I could afford.

Years of wrestling with bad monitor mixes, feedback and such, along with so many professional artists using them, pulled my attention to in-ear monitoring. For rehearsing, with the addition of guitar processors direct to the SL, Roland electric drums, Line 6 Pod for bass, and a DI box direct to the SL for keys, we discovered the ability to rehearse in near silence. Some of the benefits we discovered using in-ears:

1. Rehearsing all night and our ears were still fresh, unstrained, no ringing. Refreshing.

2. A clean in-ear mix with a clear, critical listening environment. Mistakes in our musicianship weren't getting masked by loud volume levels pumped through the mains. Vocals were more accurate. It helps us improve at a faster rate.

3. Everyone could have their own personal mix.

4. With the electric drums, the in-ears setup has allowed us to play certain small gigs at a lower volume level that could not be achieved with acoustic drums. If we want to play a house party, it's no problem.

5. And most importantly, the FOH mix was sooooo much better than anything we had ever experienced. No stage volume to interfere with the FOH audio, just clean, articulate vocals, and instruments (including drums) with punch and clarity, fat, smooth, etc. You know the drill.

As for the cons we've discovered, you are already familiar with them.
1. Can be a sterile listening environment
2. As mentioned previously, the tone can suffer from dynamics not being what they would be in an open speaker environment.
3. You give up some of the 'feel' of open speakers.

So for the record, we don't intend to use the Roland drums except on occasion, but they are nice for rehearsing. For the majority of the gigs we'll be doing, we run an acoustic kit, along with guitar amps, bass amp, etc. I also want to provide a list of the PA gear that I have so you can make a proper assessment.
SL 16.4.2
Audix OM5 mics
(2) QSC K10's
(2) Mackie 1501 subs
(1) Mipro 808 Wireless In-Ear system with UM3 buds
(4) Future Sonics Atrio's bugs with Rolls PM50's personal monitor mixers. (wired)

In addition, on the shelf I've got:
(3) Mackie SRM450's
(2) Mackie 1521's - 15" 2-way mains
(1) Mackie CFX16 Mixer
(1) 4-Channel headphone amp

So all that being said, I'd like some recommendations on what a monitor setup that includes wedges might look like. I've used the Mackie 450's for wedges with good results. In fact, when I bought the Mackie 1521's, I also bought a 3rd 450 so we could have 3 wedges. But after a while, I felt that the 450's sounded better than the 1521's for mains at FOH. So I retired the 1521's and began using the 450's for FOH.

So my guess is we could go back to 450's for wedges and put two up front and give the drummer one. Another option I've considered is getting a couple more K Series. Perhaps a pair of K12's and then using my K10's for wedges. Or visa versa. I love the sound of the K10's for mains. Haven't heard the 12's.

I hope I haven't rambled to the point that this isn't making any sense. Thanks for all your input.
BJD

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Monolithent
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If you're looking to do mostly acoustic you shouldn't need to buy more gear.

The 450's you have will fit the bill just fine for monitors. Just be sure to keep them pointed as close to your drummer's ears as possible.

If you're getting a new drummer I'd say just start him off on the in ears first and see how it goes. If you're going to be using an acoustic kit you won't need to pipe in much other than maybe the bass and a low level of the rest of the mix. The acoustic kit will take care of its own sound input.

I actually prefer to deal with electronic drums over acoustics. Acoustics bleed into everything and are a pain to clean up and still have to be tuned. I've fiddled with Plexiglass screens which help to muffle them quite a bit but you have to have the kit mic'd to make it work. Electronics have a bazillion sound options and no stage noise. Worth it to me.

You're on the right track here. Stick to your guns and bend only where you have to in the name of the music and sound your audience hears. If your musicians don't understand that the show is about how it sounds to the crowd then they are in the wrong business. And a clean articulate sound with real separation and quality levels is worth it. Its all about what your audience hears. I'd say this weekend would be a great time to pull the whole thing out into the backyard fire the whole thing up out in the open with real levels and get your IEMs worked out in a real environment. Use capture a lot out there too. Record and playback with everybody listening. Tweak the sound and then save it.

There's a reason the really big boys have pretty much all gone to in ears. They work and keep the mix cleaner for the audience.

I'm pretty sure I'm rambling here too.
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Jerryd
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Big Joe -- There isn't any reason you can't use what you have and get great results. I have been thinking about your situation and you can do it either way. Since you have already gone through the process of setting up the band with in-ears -- just keep it that way. When your new drummer shows up and see what you have done -- just ask him what he thinks. You never know -- some drummers prefer the in-ear. Honestly -- a good in-ear set up will sound just as full as a live rig if you apply EQ right. Well, you need good in ears for sure. I don't know what brand or model to tell you to get. I know there are others on here that use them quite often so they can probably tell you what a really nice set will do for you. If the drummer isn't sure -- throw a wedge back there and see if it makes him feel better.

Add one wedge at at time starting with the drummer first. You have done a very nice job! It is easy to get fired up about this stuff isn't it? The set up you have will sound better in most cases. The appearance of electronic drums always throws people off (Musicians) but you have TOTAL control and can actually make them sound very nice. You can't turn down a snare on an acoustic kit & you will also be lucky to find a drummer who will be willing to let up on it.

Just the other night I had a drummer from a band I have never ran for say, "My snare doesn't have a volume control on it so deal with it." I was kinda taken back by his approach so I said, "No problem, I won't need to put a mic on it then." He said "What?" I explained to him that he wasn't playing in a civic center so his CONCERT snare needs to become a little bar snare for the night. The worst thing you want to do is force people to leave the venue because of uncontrollable (more like unwilling) snare volume. I have had people ask me with disgust on their face, "Isn't the snare a little loud?" I would say, "Yes it is & it is also completely shut off. Would you mind telling them drummer to quit hitting his snare so hard?" Then it dawns on them that it really isn't my fault.

The only other thing I can tell you that would take your system to the next level is by placing a system controller over the FOH. This would be in the form of a Driverack or other similar device. It will allow you to join your subs together with your tops in a very nice phased aligned crossover. It is all about the buildup over the crossover. When the alignment is off -- it can actually destroy or make the response DIP severely (at the XO) & no amount of EQ will level that back off. This may be hard for you to visualize while reading this. After the system is aligned -- you can then further SMOOTH out the response across the spectrum and make it seemless where you everything is in balance (low, mids, highs).

When you have your system in balance -- your eyes won't be drawn to the speakers BUT will be drawn to the artists. I saw a KISS tribute band last weekend and the system was so out of balance that it FORCED you to STARE at the speakers for some reason. If you find yourself staring at the speakers -- then that is a clue that something isn't quite right. A nice balanced system won't even draw your eye to the speakers because it is seemless.

Now if you want to go further with all of that -- let me know. I won't leave you hanging there for you to figure it out on your own. Like Mike Rivers said in another post: You can really mess things up by using programs like Smaart, spectrafoo....etc if you don't know what you are doing. Mainly because you have to know what you are trying to achiever first. I off course, would be happy to walk you thru it step by step. I am certain Monolithent would be happy to help as well. I helped him get his system up a running utilizing Smaart & he couldn't be happier right now. After he gets that part down -- I will show him how you do averages with multiple mic positions to achieve the best possible sound out of your system.
Big Joe Daddy
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Dr J,
Thanks so much for all the thought you've put into this. It's funny in that I've wrestled with so many issues on getting this PA figured out, and I still have a long way to go. But the reality is that in the past 90 days we've gone from a 'mediocre' sounding PA to the best sounding PA we've ever had, and sooo much easier to run! All the improvement is the result of help from many of the folks here on the forum, Mono, Talmen, Mike, Peary, Dr J, and a long list of others. Thanks Boys!
Jerryd wrote:Big Joe -- There isn't any reason you can't use what you have and get great results. I have been thinking about your situation and you can do it either way. Since you have already gone through the process of setting up the band with in-ears -- just keep it that way. When your new drummer shows up and see what you have done -- just ask him what he thinks. You never know -- some drummers prefer the in-ear. Honestly -- a good in-ear set up will sound just as full as a live rig if you apply EQ right. Well, you need good in ears for sure. I don't know what brand or model to tell you to get. I know there are others on here that use them quite often so they can probably tell you what a really nice set will do for you. If the drummer isn't sure -- throw a wedge back there and see if it makes him feel better.


We had a new drummer show up last night for a tryout. He's a young guy (30's) but he jumped right on it. Some of the songs (Free, Petty, Cars, etc) he'd never heard but he got on just fine. Just shows how old we're gettin'. Anyway, I set him up with a pair of Future Sonics Atrios (in-ears) and he was just fine with it. He was blown away by the clean sound we had, not only with the in-ears, but when we pulled them out and revved up the mains. The other thing you reminded me of Doc is the EQ on the monitor mixes. The fact is I haven't even touched the Fat Channel on the AUX's. I've been so preoccupied with all the other stuff, I forgot that we could do that. I'll need to get my head around that process because I've always thought in terms of EQ and dynamics processing on individual instruments or vocals. Tweaking an AUX mix as a whole is something I'll need to learn more about. I never gave it any thought because my personal aux mix always sounded great. But I'm sure it could be better. Any tips and pointers on EQ'ing the monitors to in-ears will be greatly appreciated. In the end, it's good to know that it's not a crime to throw a wedge back there if that's what keeps him (the drummer) happy.

Jerryd wrote:Add one wedge at at time starting with the drummer first. You have done a very nice job! It is easy to get fired up about this stuff isn't it? The set up you have will sound better in most cases. The appearance of electronic drums always throws people off (Musicians) but you have TOTAL control and can actually make them sound very nice. You can't turn down a snare on an acoustic kit & you will also be lucky to find a drummer who will be willing to let up on it.

That's a good point Doc. I think the 'look' of electronic drums is hard for a lot of drummers to get their arms around. When I put an ear to it, I tend to think the electronic rendition of an acoustic kit often sounds better than the acoustic kit. Mind you, I won't argue that at a big venue where the acoustics can be mic'd up properly, that's a heck of a sound.

Jerryd wrote:Just the other night I had a drummer from a band I have never ran for say, "My snare doesn't have a volume control on it so deal with it." I was kinda taken back by his approach so I said, "No problem, I won't need to put a mic on it then." He said "What?" I explained to him that he wasn't playing in a civic center so his CONCERT snare needs to become a little bar snare for the night. The worst thing you want to do is force people to leave the venue because of uncontrollable (more like unwilling) snare volume. I have had people ask me with disgust on their face, "Isn't the snare a little loud?" I would say, "Yes it is & it is also completely shut off. Would you mind telling them drummer to quit hitting his snare so hard?" Then it dawns on them that it really isn't my fault.


Jerryd wrote:The only other thing I can tell you that would take your system to the next level is by placing a system controller over the FOH. This would be in the form of a Driverack or other similar device. It will allow you to join your subs together with your tops in a very nice phased aligned crossover. It is all about the buildup over the crossover. When the alignment is off -- it can actually destroy or make the response DIP severely (at the XO) & no amount of EQ will level that back off. This may be hard for you to visualize while reading this. After the system is aligned -- you can then further SMOOTH out the response across the spectrum and make it seemless where you everything is in balance (low, mids, highs).

The concept of a system controller is definitely something I want to learn about and implement at some point. I just want to get a few more of the basics under my belt before I tackle it. Based on the 90 days it's taken me to get this far, I don't imagine it'll be too long before I jump in.

Jerryd wrote:When you have your system in balance -- your eyes won't be drawn to the speakers BUT will be drawn to the artists. I saw a KISS tribute band last weekend and the system was so out of balance that it FORCED you to STARE at the speakers for some reason. If you find yourself staring at the speakers -- then that is a clue that something isn't quite right. A nice balanced system won't even draw your eye to the speakers because it is seemless.

Now if you want to go further with all of that -- let me know. I won't leave you hanging there for you to figure it out on your own. Like Mike Rivers said in another post: You can really mess things up by using programs like Smaart, spectrafoo....etc if you don't know what you are doing. Mainly because you have to know what you are trying to achiever first. I off course, would be happy to walk you thru it step by step. I am certain Monolithent would be happy to help as well. I helped him get his system up a running utilizing Smaart & he couldn't be happier right now. After he gets that part down -- I will show him how you do averages with multiple mic positions to achieve the best possible sound out of your system.

Doc, I will definitely take advantage of your offer and ring your bell when I'm a little further along on some of the basics. I've dialogued with Mono and he is 'pleased as punch' with the help he got from you. I've got to mention that I'm feeling somewhat of a sense of relief after throwing the credit card down so many times lately, it looks like there's finally a light at the end of the tunnel . Now I know what you're thinking..."There's never an end to it. There's always something new you'll need." And I know you're right. But for the short term I gonna bask in the satisfaction of knowing I'm gettin' very close to havin' a kick-ass PA. Many thanks to all of you guys who helped me by participating in this forum. Go Presonus!
BJD
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greggreg
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Drummers - typically the biggest PITA (pain in the ..) for the soundman. They want the BIG drum sound, need the most mics, require the most 'dialing in', yet they complain the most about "hauling all this stuff"!! Argghhh! Don't get me started! Yes, drummer dude, it takes that heavy 1200W amp and two 18" subs so that your kick goes THUMP and not a tinny thuk!! OK, enough vent! As a side note, the kick presets are some of the best on the SLs in my opinion. I love the sound of Kick 1 with no tweeks on our drummer's kick.
As for in-ears, I've used them extensively but as a bass player, I have yet to really like them. The real key to IEMs is the actual ear buds. The ones you can get good bass or good guitar tone with cost $300+ just for the buds. They are actually custom molded for the player's ears. Those are the ones you see the big boys using. With those you can get a true band mix that rivals an open wedge mix. The problem is that I, like I assume most of the folks on this forum, don't have that deep of pockets to drop $300/player for buds and I have a wife filter on my gear budget!!!
I have had the best success with the IEMs by using only one bud. Actually, I used it on the side towards our guitar player who absolutely could not turn down to a decent stage volume!! With one bud I could hear my vocals and yet I got a good overall band mix out of my other ear. It wasn't perfect and I think I sing better with a wedge but it was nice not to carry the extra gear for the wedges. I currently don't use the IEMs. I'm happy monitoring with Mackie 350s thru a AFS 224 (yeah, the purists don't like automatic FB eliminators but I'm playing and I need something to knock out the FB while my hands are occupied!!).
Big Joe Daddy
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greggreg wrote: Drummers - typically the biggest PITA (pain in the ..) for the soundman. They want the BIG drum sound, need the most mics, require the most 'dialing in', yet they complain the most about "hauling all this stuff"!! Argghhh! Don't get me started! Yes, drummer dude, it takes that heavy 1200W amp and two 18" subs so that your kick goes THUMP and not a tinny thuk!! OK, enough vent!

Too funny! At least I know I'm not alone.

I went and sprung for all four of my guys to get 'em setup with Future Sonic Atrios. I've got a pair of Westone UM3's. I'm gonna look into the custom molds. I found a company on the web that makes them for all kinds of buds.

Thanks,
BJD
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jdps150
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All this talk about the big boys using IEMs got me to check some high end models out.
Top of the line Ultimate Ears run $1350, plus however much the local 'audiologist' would charge for the molds.
The UE 18s have a Low, Mid & High driver. In each bud.

I bet you can get a decent sound out of them, along with techs to make sure they do, and the time to get it all dialed in.

I imagine that they're lightyears ahead of the $110 ones we use, & dial in ourselves on a part time basis.
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Big Joe Daddy
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jdps150 wrote:All this talk about the big boys using IEMs got me to check some high end models out.
Top of the line Ultimate Ears run $1350, plus however much the local 'audiologist' would charge for the molds.
The UE 18s have a Low, Mid & High driver. In each bud.

I bet you can get a decent sound out of them, along with techs to make sure they do, and the time to get it all dialed in.

I imagine that they're lightyears ahead of the $110 ones we use, & dial in ourselves on a part time basis.


JD,
You got me thinkin' about trying out a stereo AUX mix for my IEM's. I've read that some guys swear by it. I've only run mine mono up to this point. With 5 guys in the band, we couldn't run stereo for all of us on the 16.4.2. Maybe I need a SL 24! Ouch. I gotta stop thinkin' like that. This is getting expensive.

BTW, those Ultimate Ears look like the bomb. Don't know that I can justify it at this point. I've got UM3's and they sound better than any other buds I've heard to date. There's always something better out there.....

Thanks,
BJD

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 31/08/2010 02:15:30

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RDUB
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Another bass player chiming in... Why is it that the bigger rock gigs I do have IEM's, where I would probably appreciate the booty shaking? I'm with Greg... they work best for me with only one ear. I also sing though, and I love them for that.

Of course, I am getting older, and I don't appreciate loud stage volumes any more.

All drummers I've worked with or done sound for love a sub so they can feel their kick. Most, however, do just fine with IEM's. Go figger...

With my own classic rock band, I'm planning to do four monitors mixes, all to wedges. Stage left, stage right, drummer, and lead singer. The mixes won't be terribly different, though. Mostly just guitarists on the opposite sides of the stage so they can hear each other clearly.

Lotsa ways to go...
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Big Joe Daddy wrote:Occasionally I'm told I can be tough to work with because I'm persistent and driven. I just like to get things right and I'll work hard to do so. Not everyone shares my work ethic, and that's OK. I think I've resigned myself to the idea that if I want to get a top-notch PA system together, I'll have to do the work myself and not depend on the other musicians in any way.


I feel your pain. Early last year, when my wife encouraged me to get back in to the band scene, I told her I was not interested. After some more prodding, I told her I was going to do it right, this time. That meant that I would have to spend more money than I spent while playing in previous bands. She was cool with that. (But, I'm sure she didn't really have a clue of what I wanted, er, needed to spend.)

So, last August, I purchased a very-capable Behringer mixer, some speakers a rack and some a guitar processor and went ampless. The keyboardist and bassist both had amps. I was able to convince the bassist to drop his amp and run through the PA. The keyboardist refused and we always had stage volume issues. (He had a guitar amp in addition to his keyboard amp, both of which were very loud.) The keyboardist moved on to other loud bands. Our stage volume dropped dramatically.

That drummer also had the subs. Except they were pretty crappy 2x10" subs that could barely be heard over the mains. So, when that drummer left, the bassist and I purchased a couple HPR15s. Other than the bassist's sub, and his stage snake, I own the entire PA system.

I'm the only one with an SUV, so I get to cart around my stuff as well as the bassist's sub. I can live with that because of the benefit it gives to the band. I also carry the snake because I can have the majority of the equipment setup before the rest of the band arrives.

After the female lead singer left, we changed direction and I took over the main singing duties. I also brought in my wife to play keyboards. The previous singer did not play any instruments and only sang half of the songs, yet she was making a full share. At the time, I paid everyone the same regardless of what resources they provided.

Now, my wife and I are usually the only ones who load the SUV, unload the SUV, setup, tear down, load the SUV, unload the SUV each time we play. I don't really ask for help other than loading the subs, but my wife can handle those, as well. (I'd rather that other people don't touch my stuff because they have no stake in the equipment cost.)

Our visual show wasn't very appealing. We only had three, colored compact flourescent lights mounted in spring-loaded clamps. It was cheap and got us by until I looked at a video we made the last time we played. We were hidden in the dark and had no lights to get the crowd excited.

So, yesterday I ordered several new light fixtures for our next gig on Friday. That means that I own 100% of the PA, except for the sub and snake, and I also own 100% of the lights.

Recently, I implemented a "booking bonus." The band member that secures a gig gets 5% of that gig's total pay. I started the bonus to recoup some of my costs since my wife and I are the only ones who are really making an effort to market the band. That's fine if the other two don't make such an effort, but they are going to pay for it. Booking agents don't come for free, nor do sound & light providers.

Several weeks ago, I told the band that I would take out 10% to cover PA usage and cable replacements since they were using my system and the drummer would carelessly drag his drum cases right over my cables. The drummer, who has some financial issues, said he could handle 5% but would rather not pay anything and he may have to find another band. The bassist did not have any issues with this fee.

So, I said, "Screw it! I'm not going to fight about this. My wife and I play because we love to and if we have to pay for the systems, it's worth it." I then told them to forget the damn 5% usage fee.

I hoped things would have changed since that time, but the drummer still does not, in my opinion, contribute near what everyone else contributes. He has missed too many practices but doesn't have any problems showing up for a paying gig. Not only that, but he is the kind of drummer that floats around looking for the next thing. He spends more time messing with other bands and sitting in with them, than he does with the band to which he said he is loyal. He is taking advantage of us and that is going to stop this Friday.

I have decided that, since I am now supplying all the PA and lights, that I'm taking an extra share to help offset my costs. I am also taking out the 5% booking bonus because I still made an effort to book a gig that will benefit the other members.

For example, if we have a $400 gig, 5% comes off the top. That leaves $380. I will also take off $5 for the cost to print flyers (which does not come anywhere close the amount of time it takes me to design our flyers), so that leaves us $375. $375 divided five ways is a cool $75.

Instead of getting $100, each member gets $75. I think it is very reasonable to take a $25 usage fee for allowing the drummer and bassist to run their equipment through my system and to be viewed using my lights. It's not like my wife and I are coming out rich, because we are only gaining around $50 for a $400 gig. That does very little to offset the cost of our equipment, but it does help.

Sorry to be so long-winded, but I needed to vent. I can put up with lots of shit, but it won't be for free. Most of the people have quit this band because I expected them to put some effort into it. Call me a hard-ass or a dick, but I'm not wasting my time to be associated with musicians that don't practice their parts or get too drunk to remember how to even play. I don't have time for that rock star crap. I am tough, but I am also fair.

The gist of my story: You ain't getting it for free, anymore, baby!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 01/09/2010 22:05:49

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Jerryd
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Joined: 28/07/2010 16:01:24
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Awesome! Yeah you need to pay yourself for your fair share of work. If your band falls apart -- don't worry & book yourself some sound gigs. Charge whatever everybody else charges for a show that way you are paying for your investment. A lot of musicians just don't get it -- do they?

We had this one drummer that wanted a EVEN cut off of everything & I had to sit him down and show him what it cost to make it happen & he didn't get it so I told him that he had to do this if he wanted an even cut:

So you want the same amount of cash for less work? Ok -- go with me to out practice studio (which I paid for) and help me load the trailer. Next, let's go to the gig and set everything up and get everything roughed in. Next, do the gig & finally help with the tear down (His drums always seemed to take longer than the PA for some reason). Get the trailer loaded back up and NOW follow me back to the practice studio and set up for our next practice or at least show up to the next practice early enough to do that.

It never happened. He never even learned all the songs we played (Big no no) He took the route I thought he would and bailed. As a musician myself (guitar player for the last 23 years) and a sound guy (My passion) I have seen just about everything when it comes to musicians. All of their last second meetings at work, flat tires, headaches, birthday parties.....etc.

So in the end -- I guess I am an asshole! I accept it because it comes with the territory.

greggreg
Prenoob

Joined: 26/08/2010 06:09:44
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Good rants!!! Yeah, any of us who have been in the business long enough have been through the "deadbeat bandmate blues" (I should write a song to that!). I was with a guitar player for about 10 years. We finally found a killer chick singer ... so I married her! Now my wife and I have hooked up with a guitar player and drummer who have been together a while. We've had some bumps in the road but we're still hangin' in there kickin' out the tunes. Key to a band that stays together is mutual expectations of the work and direction of the band (how often you play and what you play, etc). Nothing worse than having folks (like me and my wife) who have fulltime careers and do music for fun/hobby/semi-pro hook up with a player who dreams of making music a career ... or worse yet, already thinks they are a rock star.
We all take an even cut. The guitar player and drummer do all the booking. I handle (and own) all the PA and lights. We try to share the load in/out but reality is that I do 75% of it. That's OK by me ... it's cheaper than a gym membership! And since my wife's in the band we do get 1/2 the gig $!! I've tried the "everybody who loads in/out get an additional XX$" or the "PA lug" off the top. None of that ever worked. It never really works out quite fair - the equipment owner always comes out short if you include normal breakage, time working gear, set up, etc, etc. You just gotta find some sort of happy medium - something you can live with. However, if you have one of those real deadbeats its best to lose them, find somebody else, and go thru spooling up the band again.
I guess we've drifted a bit from the "Live Sound" forum but it is a fact of the live sound business and a painfull part of the road for those of us who own and love our sound gear and also play in the band!! Thanks for the vent with some fellow "been there, done that" sound folks.
Palaios
Presonoid
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Joined: 29/07/2010 14:28:13
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Location: Kiihtelysvaara, Finland
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this reminds me of one festival gig I was part back in -97(?)

Belongs under title: "Why anybody pays anything for soundguys"

Subtitle "Do Your work at Your best"

It was big festival with national and international "front row" performers - can´t remenber what it was called and who they were my bad

We ran sidestage about 0.5 km away from mainstage - slight hill + woods hiding us from main audience just at the edge of tents & toilets & amusement park (=closed). And wet ground even no rain. I´ll bet it was ranked as the worst stage place ever.

Our stage was run by local churches and alternative christian bands playing/no alcohol allowed - for some reason our whole crew had "all access passes" provided for free . Someone from local churches knew someone who knew someone from the main organizer and so on. Maybe beacuse bands did what they did for free too? Other tech crews, if not provided by organizers, had to pay small "adminstrative" fees for their passes.

Guy who was the main organizer of our stage was working&running things with us (=tech team) for first 36hrs and told us just before we first time hit the bunks that he never could have quessed how much work "just one simple" stage would require Most of time he had seen us on various gigs was that we were just hanging around, making laughs and waiting for next band for soundcheck or that missing console/powerunit/mic/amp etc to arrive (=lazy guys just killing time?)

At some point during saturday evening main organizers came and told us to stop our show since it attracted people away from main stage and main event - still that 500m + slight hill + woods away + moderate PA-system - no pyros or light shows etc special. We told them to behave themselves at a quite polite way + offered them cup of coffee and fresh cookies. And kept our show running. They agreed with that after seen our setup & policy.

Never got paid (did this free as all of us) but travel + food + hotel & experience was worth it. Just because that impression we made. Both to our guy and those who told us to shut down.

After that gig it was easy to get paid

btw that festival went bankrupty after that summer

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funkafize
Prenoob
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Joined: 29/07/2010 06:28:43
Messages: 60
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Being the band member with the pa, this is how i work it:

I own and run a company that hires out equipment/sound services to whoever calls. If I join a band it is either as the drummer, or the drummer + sound guy/pa.

A lot of bands just expect me as the drummer to "bring along" all my sound gear. From the start i say this: I've spent over $30,000 on gear which needs to make ROI. I'm not going to "bring it along" when i could be hiring it out to other bands/venues/events for $200-$800 a night. This BAND does not own a pa I do. So this BAND has to hire one. Here is x, y, and z systems available about town for hire, z being my system at a "mates rates" price.

If the band democratically decides to hire x system, I dont mind paying $50 or so out of my pay for someone to provide the gear as i can claim it back on tax and meanwhile my gear can be out earning $200+ elsewhere. But i usually still end up lugging x system and doing sound same as if they hired my system. Most of the time the band will hire my system as it just makes sense to do so. So I am not the drummer who happens to have a pa. I am:

A drummer..................................and..................................A sound company.

hire me as one or both. Just dont expect two for the price of one!

So here's how a split may work:

NO PA required: $1000 gig divided by 5 members = $200 each.
PA required: $1000 gig minus say $150 for pa = $850 left for band. Five members =$170 each.

So in effect every member (including me) is paying $30 each to hire a system+sound man for the gig.
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