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What Headphones?
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Rangersam
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Joined: 29/07/2010 23:48:06
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drummernick wrote:
My question is, does the Presonus 16.0.2 headphone output socket have enough umph to drive the 400ohm version or would you recommend the 16ohm model? If possible I would like to move away from using the headphone amp altogether as it is just more mess in the chain


I have a couple of pairs of DT150 and a couple of DT770, as well as some Sennheiser.

The higher the impedance, the EASIER it is for the headphone circuit. Low impedance headphones require higher current and more power. Older headphones with impedance values of 150 Ohms or more were designed to be driven by a line level source (600R), with out the need for a separate amp. The design also meant you could use multiple headphones in parallel driven by a single small audio amp. And although higher impedance headphone require a little more VOLTAGE, I have yet to find a headphone driver that was inadequate.

To extend the example, putting more than 4 16 ohm headphones on a power amp may even exceed the current rating of that amp (not the power rating), although you would really need to push it. To do the same with DT150 headphones would require almost 50 pairs.

The bottom line is, the lower the impedance, the more current required. But all headphone amps these days are designed to drive 16 ohm headphones (or greater). I would not consider the impedance in your choice, just go with the sound you like best. The truth is, heaphone amps are more likely to sound a bit thin with low impedance headphones, if you like to pump the bass a bit. The impedance of 16 ohms is nominal, and may be less than 10 ohms for low frequencies. For high impedance headphones, this is never a factor with modern headphone amps.
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I tried out the Dr Dre beats and I really liked the sound. I'm not going to say they are flat because they aren't but they do sound good. I've used the old stand by 7610's since around '94 or '95 and they are starting to fall apart (I have 2 pairs). The leather around the ear cups is torn and you can see the foam but they still sound fine. I don't mix on headphones I only use them to monitor while I am tracking so I don't really need flat response but I would definitely consider the beats for tracking. And realistically I don't see how it could hurt to have a reference option of what people today are most likely to listen to the music on. I am always catching myself being old school. You all know what I mean completely flat near field monitors for mixing, then you listen to the mix in the car and on some other stereo set ups etc. But it's 2012, everyone listens to music on their ipods now. It's not like when I was young and everyone wanted that killer stereo system, they are getting their music from iTunes and or YouTUBE, which means earbuds, computer monitors or built in speakers, or for maybe a decent set of headphones. And I see the Dr Dre beats every store I go into from my local musical instrument stores to the Apple store to Best Buy and Future Shop and all kinds of other places. I know it goes against everything we were taught about mixing, I'm just saying....
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drummernick
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Joined: 23/02/2012 19:07:11
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Just back from shopping. Tried loads of different sets. Just before the guy in the shop was about to go nuts at me I went for the Beyerdynamic DT100 400 ohm with a single channel Little DOT MK4 valve headphone amp. The Presonus 16.0.2 can drive these perfectly well, albeit with quite a high gain setting on the output but with the amp they come alive. Thanks to everyone for your input, I went for durability and sound. Yes, I'm an old fart and a bit of a stick in the mud, but I think the Beyers came out top. Total spend was less than the Grado 500s (these blew away the Dr Dre things and slightly cleaner than the Beyers, but in my opinion, not really a studio toughened product)
The Beyers came with a coiled cable and a 6m straight. I'm happy today!
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drummernick wrote:Just back from shopping. Tried loads of different sets. Just before the guy in the shop was about to go nuts at me I went for the Beyerdynamic DT100 400 ohm with a single channel Little DOT MK4 valve headphone amp. The Presonus 16.0.2 can drive these perfectly well, albeit with quite a high gain setting on the output but with the amp they come alive. Thanks to everyone for your input, I went for durability and sound. Yes, I'm an old fart and a bit of a stick in the mud, but I think the Beyers came out top. Total spend was less than the Grado 500s (these blew away the Dr Dre things and slightly cleaner than the Beyers, but in my opinion, not really a studio toughened product)
The Beyers came with a coiled cable and a 6m straight. I'm happy today!


Told ya so... But agreed, they're not build for heavy duty artist recording sessions
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specialistsound
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Joined: 21/08/2011 14:49:56
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Sorry to jump on the back of this thread, i'll start a new one if you wish.
I have some Beyer DT880's 600Ohm
I've been using just a TL Audio fat track to drive them but now finally have a little capital to invest in a headphone amp.

Can anyone recommend a decent (non rip off) headphone amp to drive higher impedance cans?
Am UK based.
thank you
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drummernick
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I got one of these. It works really well with a 400ohm set so I think it would be fine with a 600 (there is a dip switch array to change impedance) I know it looks like a lot of money for a single channel amp, but it's worth it. Don't expect miracles straight out of the box, like any valve gear it needs to be run in for a couple of days.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Local-UK-Seller-Little-Dot-MK-III-Valve-Headphone-Amplifier-Pre-AMP-/251021751296?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Amplifiers&hash=item3a720ff400#ht_2972wt_1398
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LAGinz
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I'm a little perplexed by Rangersam's comment about resistance. I own an old pair of AT 240 DFs, which are 600 ohms---and they are not easy to drive at all.
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drummernick
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I have to agree with you. If I plug in a pair of el cheapo 8 or 16ohm head phones into my desk I can set the output to a low level and have workable volume. On a pair of hiZ phones at 400 or above they need driving harder to bring out the mid range. As an example, I can get an uncomfortably sound level at a mid point on the phone out with everything at unity. If I plug in any HiZ phones with the same setting the volume is lower.
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Ludwig Bubinga exotic 18 8 10 14ft
Spanish hand made Cajon
All my cymbals are K Zildjian some USA but a few real ones too. Recently got into Dream Bliss paper thins. Stunning bronze!
roblof
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drummernick wrote:I need rugged as I'm a drummer, most cans fall off my head at least once a week. I like the pro aspect of the Beyer were every part is available as a spare part. He has the Grado Beyer and the Dr Dre so I can do a blind fold test.

Please try the m-audio ie-40 (oem of the Ultimate Ears triple.fi10 pro). They have 26dB of isolation as well + you can fit them with custom molds for your ears.

They are well known for its sound throughout the years..... Oh, and I love them!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 13/04/2012 20:49:07

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<<< double post >>>

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 13/04/2012 20:50:42

Rangersam
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LAGinz wrote:I'm a little perplexed by Rangersam's comment about resistance. I own an old pair of AT 240 DFs, which are 600 ohms---and they are not easy to drive at all.



drummernick
13/04/2012 18:32:43 ;Subject: Re:What Headphones?
I have to agree with you. If I plug in a pair of el cheapo 8 or 16ohm head phones into my desk I can set the output to a low level and have workable volume. On a pair of hiZ phones at 400 or above they need driving harder to bring out the mid range. As an example, I can get an uncomfortably sound level at a mid point on the phone out with everything at unity. If I plug in any HiZ phones with the same setting the volume is lower.


Some articles to read if you are interested.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan03/articles/impedanceworkshop.asp

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com.au/2011/02/headphone-amp-impedance.html


I guess one thing I need to state at this point in response is that, yes, there are headphone amps (stand alone and built in) that can barely be called 'professional'. They may be severely current limited or voltage limited. I base my previous statements on the pro gear that I use in my studio.

As far as the performance of headphone amps in your equipment, you will need to check the specs. I do not doubt for one moment that manufacturers are including 'consumer rated' headphone drive circuits in their 'prosumer' gear. As most folks are going to be using 16 ohm cans, the design may not cater for 150ohm cans. I do concede, if your headphone drive circuit is running out of voltage to drive a 150 ohm cans, you may need to upgrade. My statements so far are based on headphone drive circuits that use the standard 30 volts (+ 15v and -15v) and have a maximum out as high as +20dBu.

Some of the newer circuits may run on as low as 9volts, and even have protection resistors in the output just in case someone want to use the headphone out to drive a mono line, thereby shorting out the right channel.


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Rangersam used to be called moopyhog (who died in the revolution).

LAGinz
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I'm certainly not an engineering science expert, but my experience is this this :The AT 240 DF was considered a high quality headphone in its day. Not mega-expensoive, but very flat---even sounds very good today. It's considered a bit of a collector's item on ebay these days. But if you google it, you'll find that the one caveat people had about it was that it was so difficult to drive because of its 600 ohm rating. As an illustration, I use the Presonus HP4 headphone amp with it, and have to turn it up pretty much all the way to get realistic rock levels.
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Roblof, I have tried in ear monitors and in ear headphones. I had a set made for me some years ago but couldn't get on with the physical side of it. Sonically they were amazing but I kept getting dizzy. They would have been a great tool if I could have got used to them but I was playing orchestral percussion and having to move cross stage a lot. I would get behind the vibes and my head would spin. Just one of those things, perhaps too much isolation, I never got to the bottom of it.

I love my new 100s and amp. I must admit I had never heard of the make before but they have amazing reviews and do the job well. Naturally, today I'm going to be doing a bit of valve swapping just to see the difference. Sovtec, Mullards or some Chinese non branded types. Results to follow. They are the closest thing I can get to my old Quad and Tannoys. I mastered a drum track to my B77 using just headphones as an experiment, very pleasing result.
StudioLive 16.0.2 iMac27 8gb Valve compressors, Gates,Limiters,Parametric, Solid State Quad 33 mono block power amps, iKey Audio RM3 SD/USB WAV/MP3 rack recorder, Tanoy Little Red monitors.

Gretsch round badge 12 14 20 downbeat 1960s kit
Ludwig Bubinga exotic 18 8 10 14ft
Spanish hand made Cajon
All my cymbals are K Zildjian some USA but a few real ones too. Recently got into Dream Bliss paper thins. Stunning bronze!
roblof
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drummernick wrote:Roblof, I have tried in ear monitors and in ear headphones. I had a set made for me some years ago but couldn't get on with the physical side of it. Sonically they were amazing but I kept getting dizzy. They would have been a great tool if I could have got used to them but I was playing orchestral percussion and having to move cross stage a lot. I would get behind the vibes and my head would spin. Just one of those things, perhaps too much isolation, I never got to the bottom of it.

I've never encountered the dizzyness myself, but I think I have an idéa of what you are talking about.

When I had my first flu this year a couple of weeks ago I went to the doctor since I suspected sinusitis (I had lost almost all hearing on one ear and the other one sounded like a telephone).

He noticed that my eardrums were slightly 'sucked in' and asked me to preassue compensate. Like the hobby diver I am I did the nose-thing. WHAM! I fell right down to the floor...

Doing the compenstation while the air channels were blocked made the balance stuff in the ear go bezerk. I can only assume that in-ears blocks the air in some lesser but similar way.

However, for other reasons, I almost always eat car sickness medication at each gig (+ some pints of beer ) and I've never gotten dizzy (from the on-ears at lesast).

I love my new 100s and amp. I must admit I had never heard of the make before but they have amazing reviews and do the job well. Naturally, today I'm going to be doing a bit of valve swapping just to see the difference. Sovtec, Mullards or some Chinese non branded types. Results to follow. They are the closest thing I can get to my old Quad and Tannoys. I mastered a drum track to my B77 using just headphones as an experiment, very pleasing result.

My favourite cans I've ever tried was the electrostatic Jeklin-Float headphones. I own the non-electrostatic version but they've been broken for several years - I'm trying to a new speaker replacement + new foam...
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Sportclubheidi
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Here you'll find the ones you'll stick to:

http://www.ultrasone.com/
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